When rich kill the poor, it's capitalism. When the poor kill the rich, it's crime.

[Coventina]

That's what living in late capitalism has taught me.

[LoisB]

1. So true, so true.

[RockRaven]

2. In a 1845 publication Engels called it social murder

When one individual inflicts bodily injury upon another such that death results, we call the deed manslaughter; when the assailant knew in advance that the injury would be fatal, we call his deed murder. But when society places hundreds of proletarians in such a position that they inevitably meet a too early and an unnatural death, one which is quite as much a death by violence as that by the sword or bullet; when it deprives thousands of the necessaries of life, places them under conditions in which they cannot live – forces them, through the strong arm of the law, to remain in such conditions until that death ensues which is the inevitable consequence – knows that these thousands of victims must perish, and yet permits these conditions to remain, its deed is murder just as surely as the deed of the single individual; disguised, malicious murder, murder against which none can defend himself, which does not seem what it is, because no man sees the murderer, because the death of the victim seems a natural one, since the offence is more one of omission than of commission. But murder it remains.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_murder

[Solly Mack]

5. Yep

[dchill]

9. Murder it remains.

[C0RI0LANUS]

30. Engels describes the GOP elite and their feudal policies for Americans to a "T."

Letting homeless people starve or die of exposure, cutting off healthcare subsidies, allowing a firearms epidemic to rage thru the country like a firestorm, supporting anti-vaccination, eliminating regulations to protect workers, the air, and the water, keeping Americans malnourished, uneducated, and underpaid, and devaluing women, children, and minorities is "social murder."

What Friedrich Engels saw:








Poorhouses were designed to punish the penniless.

[live love laugh]

3. Profound.

ETA: When the poor kill the poor it’s violence.

[Solly Mack]

4. It is astounding what is considered "acceptable losses".

Just collateral damage in someone else's idea of the grand scheme.

[LizBeth]

6. My son just had this conversation with me today...

[H2O Man]

7. The sad reality is

that there is big money to be made by keeping people poor.

[Solly Mack]

8. True

[dchill]

10. It's actually HOW big money is made, in most cases.

[H2O Man]

12. Even in rural

upstate New York, there are significant investments in poverty. This OP/thread has me thinking of an experience in the 1980s, organizing a tenants union in a low-income neighborhood. Area people were surprised by how low the landlords' taxes were, and how much rent they were collecting through DSS.

[cliffside]

18. And sadly that does not change except for brief periods of 'equality'

we just need more periods of equality. We've made advances, still a long ways to go, the billionaires taking over scares me.

Disengaging and remaining silent is not an option.

[multigraincracker]

11. Money is never enough. Next thing is power.

They want to be God and make the life and death decisions.

[rubbersole]

13. And are.

President Musk has nothing but our best interests at heart. Relax, it's going to start trickling down any minute...

[Woodycall]

15. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao...

Have you ever read the translation of the Tao Te Ching by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English? I came across it in a college philosophy course many years ago. It still gives me comfort and insight from time to time...

[multigraincracker]

33. Can't remember if I read that one.

The concept of the mutual interdependence of polar opposites has always stuck with me and how we can confuse words (symbols) for the thing.

[GiqueCee]

59. And "POWER" is shorthand for...

... dominion over the lives of others. The "Christian" Nationalists are all in for that.

[Coventina]

16. Welcome to DU

Enjoy your stay.

[Woodycall]

17. Can anyone explain

how to insert a photo? I'm having a little trouble here...

[byronius]

21. I believe you just paste the photo's web address into your message.

There are formatting options available, like resizing, but —

Good luck!

[Woodycall]

25. Tried it. No-go. Thanks though!

[Attilatheblond]

44. Save image to your computer

then go to this site: https://postimages.org/] and upload your image. It will give several links for posting your image on several different types of websites. For DU, I use the link for posting on forums. Hasn't failed me yet.

[Hekate]

22. "Both sides" ? Do enjoy your stay, GeorgeLittle1...

[markodochartaigh]

19. Sirach 13

3
The rich do wrong and boast of it,

while the poor are wronged and beg forgiveness.

4
As long as the rich can use you they will enslave you,

but when you are down and out they will abandon you.

5
As long as you have anything they will live with you,

but they will drain you dry without remorse.

6
When they need you they will deceive you

and smile at you and raise your hopes;

they will speak kindly to you and say, “What do you need?”

7
They will embarrass you at their dinner parties,

and finally laugh at you.

Afterwards, when they see you, they will pass you by,

and shake their heads at you.

8
Be on guard: do not act too boldly;

do not be like those who lack sense.

9
When the influential draw near, keep your distance;

then they will urge you all the more.

10
Do not draw too close, lest you be rebuffed,

but do not keep too far away lest you be regarded as an enemy.

11
Do not venture to be free with them,

do not trust their many words;

For by prolonged talk they will test you,

and though smiling they will probe you.

12
Mercilessly they will make you a laughingstock,

and will not refrain from injury or chains.

13
Be on your guard and take care

never to accompany lawless people.†

15
Every living thing loves its own kind,

and we all love someone like ourselves.

16
Every living being keeps close to its own kind;

and people associate with their own kind.

17
Is a wolf ever allied with a lamb?

So the sinner with the righteous.a

18
Can there be peace between the hyena and the dog?

Or peace between the rich and the poor?*

19
Wild donkeys of the desert are lion’s prey;

likewise the poor are feeding grounds for the rich.

20
Humility is an abomination to the proud;

and the poor are an abomination to the rich.

21
When the rich stumble they are supported by friends;

when the poor trip they are pushed down by friends.

22
When the rich speak they have many supporters;

though what they say is repugnant, it wins approval.

When the poor speak people say, “Come, come, speak up!”

though they are talking sense, they get no hearing.

23
When the rich speak all are silent,

their wisdom people extol to the clouds.

When the poor speak people say: “Who is that?”

If they stumble, people knock them down.

[Hekate]

27. I had to look up Sirach, and it was a very interesting browse

Thank you

[markodochartaigh]

28. You're most welcome.

n/t

[BigmanPigman]

20. They are the modern Robber Barons

Corruption, greed and sociopathy is a combination that is sadistic.

[Hekate]

24. It's the Gilded Age all over again, minus any pretense at good manners. The GOP wants to erase the 20th century

[Karasu]

23. When a criminal can be POTUS or a cabinet secretary, it makes you wonder what the point of obeying the law even

is. It's 100% just for "the poors." There's no way to pretend otherwise anymore.

[Hekate]

26. Leona Helmsley ("the Queen of Mean" ) encapsulated the attitude perfectly when asked about her taxes...

“Only little people pay taxes, “ she said.

Likewise I sometimes think only “little people” are expected to obey laws.

Meant to add: I cling to the core of my ethics, regardless.

[claudette]

29. What rich

person shot an innocent man in the back and got away with it?

[BigMin28]

32. It was not politics

But look up T. Cullen Davis. He got away with murder, including his 12 year old step daughter. Also got off after trying to place a hit on a judge.

[claudette]

34. My point is

Your example charged with the crime but got off somehow. The rich CEO Thompson was never charged or convicted of a crime yet some feel it was ok that he was murdered.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. They have far more efficient ways of killing people.

[Attilatheblond]

47. They kill without shooting us in the backs, but they kill none the less

[link:[url=https://postimg.cc/DJbGVvQZ][img][/img][/url]|]

[claudette]

48. Dear lord

Unbelievable. Then press charges. Don’t murder them.

[Attilatheblond]

50. Press charges for WHAT? The law protects those who work to protect shareholders interests

Seldom does the law say 'piss on shareholders' interests, do what is right for all'. And that is why some people will eventually resort to violence to get some measure of justice.

[claudette]

65. And the law

Protects innocent people from being shot in the back. It is purely a crime of murder even if “some” people resort to violence. There is. no justification for this man being killed. Period

[Arazi]

54. What DA will "press charges"?

For perfectly legal decisions for denial of care

[claudette]

66. I don't know

But that is NO excuse to murder someone.

[Arazi]

69. Thompson is a murderer

Letting him and his peers continue maiming, ruining, and killing millions of us without consequence or recourse is theirs, and your, solution.

People have denigrated Bernie, AOC or basically anyone whose tried to fight for M4A or universal health care. Obama lost the battle for even a public option for us. Protesting our situation (or any issue anymore tbh) is useless.

This act of rough justice has broken thru though. I accept Thompson as the sacrifice (god knows millions of us have died at the hands of his system) and there wont be any condemnation from me about his death

[claudette]

70. Only in your mind

He did not kill anyone. Please get a grip.

[Arazi]

71. Just curious, are you in the US?

If you are, then you know people who’ve been horribly maimed, ruined and killed by this system. There’s a reason Thompson’s assassin is being lauded for his rough justice.

If you aren’t, you don’t have any firsthand experience with the shitshow these execs have created and perpetuated.

[claudette]

72. I live in

New York state. Thompson did not personally MURDER anyone. And, was he alone responsible for all the decisions? I think not. Doesn't matter. MURDERING someone who you THINK is responsible for deaths or injuries is NOT the way these things are handled. I am astounded that anyone would blame this victim. It makes me sick to think Americans actually think it was ok

[Arazi]

73. Shrug

I’ve already said I don’t condone vigilante justice but I certainly understand it.

Even more it’s sparked more interest in re-examining our fucked up healthcare system than any other tragedy in the past 10 years (and some stories are so awful that’s what should really be making you sick).

I’ll take Thompson’s “sacrifice” in exchange for that conversation even as I fully expect his assassin will be caught and tried. Thompson knew his business was hurting and killing people, he created and enforced their denial policies Claudette. He’s absolutely responsible with blood on his hands. I have no mercy in my heart for him

[ck4829]

75. "I don't know" is not an answer

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19795392

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19799053

Try again please.

[BattleRow]

49. Old Italian proverb ,revised:

Original:

"You can steal more with a briefcase than with a gun."

Revised:
"You can legally murder more people with a briefcase than with a gun."

[TheFarseer]

31. How many people has UHC killed

By denying them surgery or a cancer screening or by making them afraid to go to the hospital? We all know the answer is greater than 1. And this “victim” accelerated it by moving to an AI based approval system that denies 90% of claims!

[claudette]

35. If consumers

thought there was a crime they could have pressed charges. Being a CEO doesn’t make someone a murderer who needs to be shot in the back

[TheFarseer]

36. When people believe the system is failing them

When people think the political and judicial system is rigged for the powerful, they are going to take matters into their own hands. It doesn’t make it right, but that’s what is going to happen. The rich and powerful better wake up or the masses are going to be setting up guillotines next.

[claudette]

38. That is truly scary when

"vigilante" justice begins to be rationalized.

[Farmer-Rick]

62. A lot of the population is armed

So it won't be guillotines they will be using.

[Dave says]

37. But the laws are just for little people

With some exceptions.

[Arazi]

40. You now have AMPLE evidence that the rich NEVER pay for their crimes

Never.

You must not live in the US. We’ve just watched an obscene miscarriage of justice because a rich man manipulated and dragged out his cases in our courts. He’s stacked the courts so they’re even more tilted to protect the rich.

Poor (sick and dying) people don’t have the $$, stamina or time to spend on trying to get justice.

Anyone trying to sue an insurance company or health insurance CEO better be a billionaire as well, plus be strong and healthy to attempt such a thing.

[Progressive dog]

39. Murder is a crime either way

We know the assassin committed murder.

[Arazi]

41. We know Brian Thompson is a *mass* murderer

Plus he’s responsible for permanently maiming people who got denied care. And been responsible for financially ruining many hundreds of thousands more.

(And yes, the assassin has now also murdered one man)

[Progressive dog]

43. We do not know that

Made up claims fall way short of proof. Produce one death certificate blaming lack of care because of Brian Thompson and you'd have the beginnings of a case against him. There was no probable cause.
Why not charge the doctors or the hospitals? Maybe charge the people who write the laws.Lots of responsibility to go around if we ignore what the laws define as crimes.

And the we have film of the assassin puling the trigger.

[Arazi]

46. The buck, the *literal* buck, stopped with him

He made millions climbing the ladder of a systemic killing machine for decades, that he absolutely knew was killing people. His role as CEO is literally to dictate how the company will handle covering people’s healthcare.

His decisions.

His directives.

His leadership setting the tone for the company.

Thompson absolutely is a mass murderer. Hitler didn’t pull the triggers either but nobody disputes his culpability in the Nazi party’s death machine.

[Progressive dog]

51. "systemic kiiling machine"

That is funny. Lots of people die in hospitals and while under medical care. Would they have has better outcomes if they weren't insured?

[Arazi]

53. We're discussing denial of care

That’s lead to permanent damage, financial ruin, and yes death because of insurance companies refusing to cover a persons medical needs (this discussion revolving around Brian Thompson CEO of UHC that denies about 1/3 of claims).

Your point isn’t clear

[Progressive dog]

55. So denial of care is a systemic killing machine

in your opinion.
Of course there is at least no appeal of this denial of care. Is there or don't you think it's relevant?
Thank heaven you don't get to write laws.

[Arazi]

56. Yep insurance companies' evil policies are death panels

And the administrators of those policies are murderers. You think they’re blameless?

And YES!!! I should write the laws - for universal healthcare for all. Bring in Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and let’s get to work.

Fuck our current bullshit system.

[Progressive dog]

57. There is a big difference between

being blameless and being a murderer. I doubt anyone is forever blameless.
If you want `to write laws, run for an office that gets to do that. I sure won't vote for you, I'm worrying about Trump destroying our current, best in the world for over 200 years, system. I really don't want people in charge who agree with them about our system.
BTW I'll bet neither Warren nor Sanders would make running a health insurance company grounds for murder charges.

[Arazi]

61. Newsflash: our healthcare system is NOT the best in the world

Not by any measure is it the “best”.

In fact our healthcare system is producing some of the worst results of all industrialized nations

[Progressive dog]

79. You didn't actually read my npost

and it was only a few sentences.

[yardwork]

77. The U.S. is not "the best in the world" at anything.

If you're talking about our healthcare system, it's arguably one of the worst, when you consider that it costs twice as much for mediocre results.

Medicare Advantage works like this: the federal government gives private health insurance companies upfront payment for every person who enrolls in their program. After that, it's up to the company to decide whether to reimburse the doctors and hospitals for care. Surprise! The companies take the money upfront and then deliberately do everything possible to avoid paying claims. Their strategy is a matter of public record.

[Progressive dog]

78. Our governmental system is the

best in the world. We live in the longest surviving democracy in world history and no other country can come close to claiming that.
I actually know how medicare advantage works--it works the same as all insurance. You pay up front so that you can average out the cost of a disaster with other insureds. Of course they have rules for what they will pay for and for what requires pre approval. I'm fine with that since I do not expect to manage my own treatment. Doctors and hospitals do not have to accept any medicare advantage plan. I trying to figure out why they continue to accept not being paid (if what you claim is true).
Theoretically, medicare advantage companies are paid based on the average payout of original medicare for comparable patients. The patients no longer have to worry about their health costs exceeding a fixed dollar amount. Usually drugs are included, many plans cost nothing extra, lots of plans provide some dental, vision, and even hearing benefits--none of which are covered in original medicare.
BTW Insurance companies are paid to manage original medicare, they issue medicaid policies, and policies under the affordable care act.

[Ilikepurple]

58. Not every word used in law is confined to existing laws

The whole point of OP, I believe, is that our legal system does not adequately punish $ for lives decisions that corporations and their officers make. People seem to be talking about moral murder rather than legalmurder. Equivocation is one hell of a drug. I don’t think I’ve read a comment that said Thompson should have been convicted under existing laws for murder. I tend to think the idea is that it seems murder like when someone decides to deny lifesaving care to someone who bought their product for the express purpose of getting that care to enrich themselves. Of course it’s complex issue, but this isn’t a court of law. No need for terms of art such as probable cause. How about an argument that that profits over people is morally just homicide in pretty much all cases?

[claudette]

67. But the

CEO did not.

[ck4829]

74. Exactly. It's not murder when poor people are in the way of rich people getting more MONEY

[orangecrush]

45. Fuck that guy.

EOM

[B.See]

52. Join the club...

"Same as it ever was."

[Patton French]

60. This makes me sad. NT

[leftstreet]

63. DURec

[yaesu]

64. civics 101, the best government money can buy. nt

[Irish_Dem]

68. Yes. The rich and powerful have made it a crime to save the life of a dying pregnant woman.

But I am sure the paramedics and hospital staff were allowed to try to save the life of a rich dying CEO.

[Patton French]

76. When anyone kills anyone it's bad.

Or at least it used to be.