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H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:25 PM Dec 9

Manifesto Destiny

"The killer awoke before dawn
He put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked on down the hall."
-- Jim Morrison, The End


Luigi Mangione was reportedly caught when someone at a McDonald's recognized him. This is surely evidence that he is the anti-hero of a modern Jean-Baptiste Racine play. The alignment of anti-hero character traits are all found ..... he had zero chance of "winning" in the long run, but was intent upon making a statement on society and its values. Most important, the audience is sharply divided on if he is a hero or a vicious criminal.

Like Morrison, there appears to be a rejection of his father's values. A few of the forum's readers may recall this being common in the 1960s and '70s, and was known as the "generation gap." Although relatively few of us resorted to violence -- "make love, not war" seemed the better alternative -- there were anti-heroes back in the day.

Every so often, early reports are accurate. There is no evidence that his father, unlike Jim's, was involved in the Gulf of Tonking incident, Luigi's parents owned a country club, something often associated with golf. His family was well-to-do, and Luigi had a good education. While he had the potential to be the CEO of an insurance company, he rejected the chance to be a cog in the wheel that is grinding our society Durkheim's "disorganized dust of individuals ."

Almost immediately after the murder, young men were having "look-alike" contests. The type of coat Luigi wore has reportedly sold out. And people are getting tatoos of him. This suggests that he will play a different role in American history than Ted Kaczynski, despite the fact that he is said to have liked Ted's manifesto.

There are reports that Luigi's family was "concerned" about him in recent times. In a reflex action, some immediately proposed that he could be mentally ill. For mental illnesses do tend to show up in young men around his age. Far more importantly, he is white, and young white killers have greater access to being considered mentally ill than non-white young male killers. From this, the one thing we can be certain of is that a lot of projection from the public will rise to the surface. The in-coming president also likes McDonald's food. Just saying.

The American public has become an audience of spectators. At a time when emotions are rising at the exact rate that rational thought sinks, spectators are more prone to act out. One can find this in events from high school sports to those following the Karen Reid trial. Those who inhabit the upper levels of corporate America are clearly concerned that the murder of CEOs will spread like school shootings.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Manifesto Destiny (Original Post) H2O Man Dec 9 OP
His twitter also hinted that he had Aspergers. LeftInTX Dec 9 #1
Interesting. H2O Man Dec 9 #7
Thanks for this well-thought out post Just_Vote_Dem Dec 9 #2
How awful :( soandso Dec 9 #8
I appreciate it, and I totally agree n/t Just_Vote_Dem Dec 9 #9
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 9 #13
So true, and thanks Just_Vote_Dem Dec 9 #14
Great post. Thank you! Evolve Dammit Dec 9 #18
Also 1 ballad dedicated ? to him dweller Dec 9 #3
Composer is also Italian soandso Dec 9 #11
Thank you. H2O Man Dec 9 #16
Great Post cjoki4 Dec 9 #4
I thought corporations already were. LeftInTX Dec 9 #5
I said once... The Madcap Dec 9 #10
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 9 #17
Great OP malaise Dec 9 #6
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 9 #19
Oh I am so sad Saoirse9 Dec 9 #12
If I remember correctly, H2O Man Dec 9 #21
I didn't cheer Saoirse9 Dec 10 #35
There aren't enough bullets. malthaussen Dec 9 #15
Interesting. H2O Man Dec 9 #24
interesting, as in "Exhibit # 1" Skittles Dec 9 #27
Interesting, H2O Man Dec 9 #28
OK that went into the stratosphere Skittles Dec 9 #29
K&R Solly Mack Dec 9 #20
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 9 #25
As it happens, UnitedHealth has an sorted reputation for intentionally limiting Mental Health coverage tenderfoot Dec 9 #22
That's not surprising. H2O Man Dec 9 #30
I'm from a similar "hue" of the spectrum. Mopar151 Dec 9 #23
Right. H2O Man Dec 9 #31
"emotions rising as rational thought sinks" Skittles Dec 9 #26
There was a time H2O Man Dec 9 #32
No one here gets out alive... BigmanPigman Dec 10 #33
I've decided to H2O Man Dec 10 #36
Ha! You made me laugh. BigmanPigman Dec 10 #38
Less Crystal Ship, More Horse Latitudes. Kid Berwyn Dec 10 #34
We have entered H2O Man Dec 10 #37

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
7. Interesting.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:55 PM
Dec 9

I was recently at a holiday gathering of numerous young parents and their toddlers. I was invited because one of my son's friends like me, and so I was the lone old person there. I sat quietly and opted to just listen to the conversations of one of the younger generations, since my grandson was busy playing with his buddies.

Soon, the discussion turned to the parents and children of those who were not there. Certain mildly informed adults were attributing aspects of aspergers and autism to others' children. I did not butt my formerly broken nose into the conversation, but I did remember that most of the highly intelligent people I knew when I was young were socially awkward. Those things can and often do go hand in hand.

I'm long retired from a career in mental health. Since I retired, the insurance industry has caused some diagnoses to change. I keep that in mind. More, I think it is important to remember that if we exam anyone closely, we will find some feature of a personality disorder, though not enough to diagnose them with it. I suspect that lots of children have aspects of aspergers and autism, but are still just good little ones who are perfectly normal. Aspergers and autism are serious issues, but I suspect that Big Pharma would prefer that every parent have their child(ren) diagnosed and placed on medication.

I say this, without reference to this case.

Just_Vote_Dem

(3,212 posts)
2. Thanks for this well-thought out post
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:38 PM
Dec 9

And about the mental illness with young adults-a personal note-

I have a cousin who was one of the smartest people I ever knew. He had a Masters in psychology and was in charge of the night shift in the psych section of a large hospital in the Southeast. He became disenchanted with the treatment of the mentally ill and got his law degree while still working full time. Unfortunately he developed schizophrenia (he was in his late 20's or early 30's) and he began to give me long phone calls detailing how he was being followed, being singled out for who knows what, etc. It ended with a suicide attempt and he has now been in care for about the past 15 years. I miss him terribly.

 

soandso

(1,631 posts)
8. How awful :(
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:57 PM
Dec 9

It's a terrible disease which I hope is eventually cured or better treatment found for.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
13. Thank you!
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:25 PM
Dec 9

I have had relatives and friends who suffered (or still suffer) from major mental illnesses. Some of the most decent people I've ever met. And it is true that serious mental illnesses strike highly intelligent people at the same general rate as any/every other population. Every extended family in the country has had someone, somewhere in their tree, that has suffered fromthese cruel illnesses. Although some progress has been made, too many people remain uninformed on mental illness.

Though long retired, my years of employment at a mental health clinic -- including coordinating with psych wards and the county jail -- included experiences with both good or bad outcomes. Personally, I have found that those with major mental illnesses tend to be the most honest and decent individuals I have met.

cjoki4

(40 posts)
4. Great Post
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:42 PM
Dec 9

“Those who inhabit the upper levels of corporate America are clearly concerned that the murder of CEOs will spread like school shootings.”

After this murder happened, I said to my husband, after 25 of public schools doing active shooter drills, now corporations will be doing them.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
17. Thanks!
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 07:29 PM
Dec 9

No doubt many of them are seeking more ways to be in "gated" environments 24/7.

Saoirse9

(3,843 posts)
12. Oh I am so sad
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:23 PM
Dec 9

I had been hoping against hope that he wouldn’t get caught.

His trial will be extremely interesting. It may take awhile before we hear the full extent of his motives.

If as someone said above, guns are the new guillotine, I hope it catches on. Because I want people to stop hurting innocent children and shoot dishonest greedy corporate executives instead.

If it’s wrong for me to say the above I don’t want to be right.

I have a cousin with Asperger’s. As a child she had a photographic, near perfect memory for details. We had to be careful what we said in front of her because she would repeat it in front of other people and it could be so embarrassing. But if you asked her about an event in her childhood she could tell you what you were wearing the day it happened and the make model and color of the car you were driving at the time even 10 years later. She works at a grocery store now and married a pharmacist with a similar diagnosis. We say she’s “on the spectrum”. This Luigi could have been on the spectrum too. My cousin is very smart just socially awkward.

I am glad his family seem to have the money for a robust defense for him.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
21. If I remember correctly,
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 08:30 PM
Dec 9

you cheered when Joseph Donnelly attempted to kill Daniel Christie in the 1992 flick "Far and Away."

My late brother could recite every boxing record in the annual Ring Record book. My uncle, the BCI Senior Investigator, refused to use computers, but could memorize every detail of the many crimes he solved. I have a newspaper article where a co-worker said my uncle had a computer-like brain.

I think that when this case eventually goes to trial, there will be lots of interest.

Saoirse9

(3,843 posts)
35. I didn't cheer
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:49 AM
Dec 10

but I was mighty happy.

Im not a savant like my cousin. But I do remember numbers. I remember every home phone number I ever had and some of my old work numbers.

Anyway I am sorry the kid was captured.

malthaussen

(17,982 posts)
15. There aren't enough bullets.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 07:19 PM
Dec 9

Yeah, since anyone who murders someone is ipso facto mentally ill, that is sure to be claimed by many in the ensuing circus. I may be one of the few people in America who don't give a good goddam about it. People die everyday, and many of them are murdered. End of story, as far as I'm concerned.

-- Mal

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
24. Interesting.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 10:32 PM
Dec 9

I suppose every generation is entitled to an anti-hero or two. I care more about the women who exposed the deputy in Kentucky in the "sex for favors" held in the judge's chambers ..... which was followed by the sheriff shooting the judge. A recently released tape of that woman's deposition suggests the judge was involved in the sex crimes. I'm not concerned about if the sheriff had a "mental break." I am concerned that this is not a limited reality.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
28. Interesting,
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 11:05 PM
Dec 9

as in Mal's post. There is little chance the prosecutor will use his post as "Exhibit #1." I could be wrong, but I do not believe it will be part of the prosecution.

 

tenderfoot

(8,982 posts)
22. As it happens, UnitedHealth has an sorted reputation for intentionally limiting Mental Health coverage
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 08:40 PM
Dec 9
Reporting Highlights

An Insurer Sanctioned: Three states found United’s algorithmic system to limit mental health coverage illegal; when they fought it, the insurer agreed to restrict it.

A Patchwork Problem: The company is policing mental health care with arbitrary thresholds and cost-driven targets, highlighting a key flaw in the U.S. regulatory structure.

United’s Playbook Revealed: The poorest and most vulnerable patients are now most at risk of losing mental health care coverage as United targets them for cost savings.

These highlights were written by the reporters and editors who worked on this story.

https://www.propublica.org/article/unitedhealth-mental-health-care-denied-illegal-algorithm


And on the topic of the nation's "Mental Health Crisis"... many go on about it but like gun violence, nothing has been done about it. Certainly not by United Health.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
30. That's not surprising.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 11:28 PM
Dec 9

Thank you!

I think that to truly address issues of mental health in this country would be difficult for insurance companies and Big Pharma. Not addressing it poses risks greater than this single episode of violence.

Mopar151

(10,221 posts)
23. I'm from a similar "hue" of the spectrum.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 10:00 PM
Dec 9

If you leave out the part out where civilized people don't shoot other people dead before breakfast, he "engineered" a pretty good job of (taking out a human toothache) a political assassination, with very little collateral damage.
But, as he was "killing" the details of the killing part, his planning on the "human factors" side was sloppy and dismissive. He may have gotten revenge, but the larger issues go on like a rising flood.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
31. Right.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 11:37 PM
Dec 9

A day or so ago, I noted that the gunman appeared to be very intelligent. He planned ahead for the event, and for getting away. But not for after he got away.

I said he appeared to be in his mid-20s, and no matter how smart one is, no matter how many things one plans for, there are always more ways for good investigators to catch them.

This may encouraged politicians to make insurance an important issue in up-coming elections. But so long as politicians taking $$$$ from the insurance industry and Big Pharma hold the majority in DC, no real progress can be made.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
32. There was a time
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 11:52 PM
Dec 9

when I found it frustrating. In my opinion, the tide of emotions began to rise during the Obama era. It has led, on the national stage, to a sociopathic felon being elected twice now.

It rarely ever leads to a positive outcome. Maybe after there is a hurricane or something similar, and good people join in to assist those in need. But more often, we witness the negative potential. On a small scale, I remember my daughters' school having to call the State Police to remove a mother who disagreed with a ref's call in a girls JV basketball game. (I was on the school board at the time. Girls JV basketball had passed football for the school sport with the most injuries. I remember thinking, "This is not good.&quot

I've noted before the harsh divide between opposing sides of citizens on the Karen Reid case. This includes some pushing, but is not limited to that -- foolish as it is. A few months back, it was reported that people in a car threw acid on a crowd of her supporters. Again, I found myself thinking this was not a good sign.

There are, of course, numerous other "not good" cases in our country. In my opinion, they go hand-in-hand with the threats to our democracy by a group that appears less and less capable of rational thought.

BigmanPigman

(52,633 posts)
33. No one here gets out alive...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 05:02 AM
Dec 10

Says it all.

I am going to have "When The Music's Over" and "The End" played at my party after I die. It is in my "final instructions". I plan on having everyone happily drinking a toast or five to Jim. Also, they have to play Apocalypse Now on the TV during the party.

0

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
36. I've decided to
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:28 AM
Dec 10

have my "calling hours" while I'm still alive. I'll lay still in the casket and listen to what people say ...... perhaps sitting up to correct some surprised friend. I plan to be cremated, and have left instructions that my ashes be spread on the driveway in the winter, as it becomes icy.

Kid Berwyn

(19,304 posts)
34. Less Crystal Ship, More Horse Latitudes.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 09:15 AM
Dec 10

In the future, CEOs will get personal protection as part of their pay packages. For now, added employees, once Herr Lord Doktor Musk completes the robot Army, capital improvements. Any and all additional costs, of course, will be passed on to the consumer-citizens. For competitive fairness, the corporation will put security costs down in the public books as a cost of business and thus also is tax-deductible.

Everybody who matters wins. Those who don’t, sink.

H2O Man

(76,201 posts)
37. We have entered
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:40 AM
Dec 10

a strange time. Thinking back of the years I've been on earth, with JFK, Evers, Malcolm, MLK, RFK, and Lennon, I don't think public shootings favor our side. But I do understand that this gunman's generation has a very different life experience, and this incident is thus viewed in a very different context than mine.

We know that the brain isn't fully developed until around the age this young fellow is now. That involves the ability to identify the future consequences of one's actions. This guy, for example, did plan for his escape from NYC ..... but not for after he got away. Likewise, I suspect he did not consider the consequences of his actions, for himself or for society. He had the oversized sense of "right vs wrong" common among young folks. Old as I am, I can still remember that phase of my life!

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