Seriously, what's the difference between Penny, Zimmerman and Rittenhouse?

[brush]

They all caused the death of another human being. Penny is considered a sympathetic figure but the other two are not, yet they all caused the death of another human being...two in Rittenhouse's case.

It's very discouraging that the dominant sentiment here on DU is that Penny should go unpunished.

WTH? Nothing?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. People have more experience with an irrational person in crisis on public transportation than actively hunting

down someone during unrest or in a neighborhood watch way. No one likes to *feel* unsafe, even if they are still not in danger, and it's such a visceral feeling that people don't see how these cases are a lot closer than they may seem at first glance.

[brush]

3. Yes. The cases are a lot closer than they first seem to be...

but we here on DU were not on that subway car yet most seem to think Penny should've not been punished for causing the death of another person.

Not even a couple of months in jail.

We're supposed to be progressive,enlightened people.

I don't get it.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

6. The little I know about the case

I think he should have been guilty of at least manslaughter-JMO....

[B.See]

20. So do I.

[Lunabell]

47. Involuntary manslaughter.

I don't think he intended to kill the man. I believe he was reckless in subduing someone who was presenting a threat to everyone on that car.

[yagotme]

7. I thought our aspiration here WAS to keep people out of jail.

You seem awfully intent to put him IN jail, even though a jury found him faultless. Not very enlightened, or progressive.

[brush]

8. Oh, please, the man caused the death of another person.

I won't be responding to anymore of your posts.

[Seeking Serenity]

12. No, he didn't.

[yagotme]

21. Well, sorry you feel that way... nt

[Sundance1220]

97. DA overcharged

If it were a matter of only a few months in jail, he may have been convicted. Anything resembling homicide, not a chance in NYC.

[BlueTsunami2018]

2. Both Zimmerman and Rittenhouse went looking for trouble.

Penny acted on the spur of the moment to defend others. I don’t think it’s the same thing at all.

[brush]

4. So no punishment at all for causing a man's death?

for good intentions but going too far?

[Seeking Serenity]

11. Penny didn't cause Neely's death.

[brush]

15. Oh, really, choking him for six minutes within an inch of death...

and the man later died, you actually think the choking had nothing to do with the man dying?

IMO that's not logical thought.

[Seeking Serenity]

35. He wasn't "choking" him. The ME, when she first autopsied Neely's body,

Reported that she couldn't determine the cause of death and had to wait for the toxicology report, i.e., no physical evidence of choking.

[Quiet Em]

55. No. She testified the chokehold was the sole cause of Neely's death

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-pennys-chokehold-was-sole-cause-jordan-neelys-death-medical-exa-rcna179940

[Seeking Serenity]

63. After her written report couldn't determine a cause of death

She changed her position later

[Quiet Em]

65. She did not.

I think you are confusing her report and her testimony with the testimony of the examiner from Penny's defense team.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

16. It was the jury's opinion, verdict, that he wasn't guilty of the charges

and acquitted him, so, no punishment.

[brush]

19. Do you agree that causing another man's death should go unpunished?

Not a couple of months in jail, maybe house arrest, or probation even?

I sure wouldn't be comfortable around someone who didn't know not to choke someone for six minutes.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

25. I don't know enough about this case to render an opinion and I have zero interest in learning any more about it.

Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2024, 09:00 PM - Edit history (1)

What my opinion is is irrelevant to the verdict, the jury heard the testimony, weighed the evidence and rendered a verdict of not guilty and that's all that counts.

[EX500rider]

59. Lots of time that is true

If someone steps off the curb in front of my truck without looking both ways and I run him over and kill him, I have caused another persons death yet I doubt I would face any punishment so it depends on the case

[brush]

71. In that scenario, no. But not having enough sense to know not to choke...

someone for six minutes, that a whole other matter.

[Dumpy]

69. Yes, when twelve people sit in judgement of another

and they all reach the same conclusion to the evidence that they saw.

[brush]

74. Ok. But there's still a dead body he caused. Nice dodge though.

[Dumpy]

93. no dodge, follow the law and rules of the justice system.

[brush]

94. The rules of the justice system allows consequences, in fact most often calls for them for causing the death...

of another human being.

Most often.

[yagotme]

96. Yes, except in the case of self defense, or the defense of others.

Which this case was, obviously.

[BlueTsunami2018]

28. Apparently not.

I don’t know what would be an appropriate punishment in this situation. I don’t see this as a Zimmerman/Rittenhouse type of thing. Penny didn’t intend to kill anyone and he certainly wasn’t actively looking for confrontation as they were.

I don’t know what else could be done.

[NoRethugFriends]

58. you asked what the difference was.

They told you the difference. They didn't say he shouldn't be punished

[Dr. Strange]

103. Should Jordan Williams have been charged for killing someone?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/charges-dropped-jordan-williams-nyc-man-accused-fatal-subway-stabbing-rcna91780

Jordan Williams, the 20-year-old man who was accused of fatally stabbing a New York City subway rider, will avoid prosecution, city officials said Wednesday.

A grand jury declined to indict Williams on manslaughter and weapons charges in connection with the deadly stabbing of Devictor Ouedraogo, 36, on a Brooklyn J train on June 13.

Ouedraogo was alleged to have punched Williams' girlfriend and harassed other passengers.

“Our office conducted an impartial and thorough investigation of this tragic case, which included review of multiple videos and interviews with all available witnesses, and that evidence was fairly presented to a grand jury," the Brooklyn district attorney’s office said in a statement. "Today, the charges against Jordan Williams have been dismissed."

[Celerity]

86. +1

[MichMan]

5. All three were acquitted by juries, so no differences there. n/t

[brush]

10. So state an opinion. Is that a good thing?

[Seeking Serenity]

14. Yes, it is. I am in no way in favour of innocent people being put in prison.

Nor, IMO, should any Democrat be.

[brush]

26. Causing another person's death, though well-intentioned...

but not having enough sense to know that choking someone for six minutes can cause a person to die, you actually think that person should go unpunished.

A good Democrat should know better than that.

[Seeking Serenity]

40. He wasn't "choking" him.

It is possible, y'know, to restrain a person using what looks like a choke hold without actually choking the person (and Penny had help in restraining Neely, but he wasn't charged in Neely's death)

[Kingofalldems]

9. I remember trolls here on DU fought tooth and nail for Rittenhouse.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

82. I was not on the jury, but maybe they know something we don't.

Many on this forum, and those you likely do not consider trolls, seem to grasp at first impressions.

For example, there was real video footage of a scene that showed contradiction to what was being posted in this forum. But because a few frames of the video wasn't consistent with the reactive emotional response, there was no ability for it to get talked about. I'm sure folks thought I was a troll for being the messenger. If they only allowed the conversation, most would have seen the truth. Instead, we are left with a false narrative.

[Sympthsical]

85. It's just how it is

Some people think due process should result solely in whatever verdict their political sensibilities demand.

Which is extremely chilling if you think about the implications of that for about ten seconds.

Justice as an instrument for political result is some Soviet Union shit.

[Cirsium]

13. What's the difference

What's the difference between the Allies at Normandy and the Germans? They both shot people.

I am not defending the man who murdered the homeless man, nor am I defending murder in general. I am pointing out, with an extreme example perhaps, that there are reasons why we see the same actions differently depending upon the context.

Is it true that there is a "dominant sentiment here on DU is that Penny should go unpunished?"

[Seeking Serenity]

18. Should or should not is moot at this point.

He was charged, tried, and found not guilty of negligent homicide, after the State dropped its manslaughter charge.

[Cirsium]

24. Hard to keep track

So many murders.

[Seeking Serenity]

45. Not a murder.

[Cirsium]

73. Deaths

Deaths, then. I haven't followed that story. What is your take on the case?

[brush]

30. Keep reading the thread. Most seem to thing he should go unpunished.

Not even house arrest or probation. IMO the man doesn't have enough sense to know that choking someone for six minutes can lead to death.

Wouldn't want to be his girlfriend of wife. Will he lose control again as he was unpunished before?

[LeftInTX]

17. I'm sorry, but this case wasn't on my radar. Maybe too much election stuff.

Sounds like he should have been found guilty of something.

Sorry, I just didn't follow it because I was too busy with the election and now the wrap up after the election. (I never ends)

Haven't seen the video, but a six minute chokehold sounds extreme.
Could he have restrained the guy instead?
He was indicted and the case went to trial.
Does this have shades of Bernhard Goetz? That's what it seems like to me.

[Seeking Serenity]

23. I love this idea of "should be found guilty of something"

I'm a Democrat from back when we were very wary of state power. Now it seems people don't think the State should have to meet its high burden, and that juries should be instructed that they have to find a person on trial "guilty of something."

"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

[brush]

31. What do you think should happen to a person who caused another's death...

even though well intentioned but went too far?

Should he just go Scott free? What if he looses control again with a girlfriend of wife?

[Seeking Serenity]

52. Investigated. If charges are warranted, file a bill of particulars.

Put the person on trial, make sure everyone knows that it's the STATE that has the burden, let the State make its case, and give it to the jury to decide.

[Ontheboundry]

105. So we jail people for what 'might' happen now?

That's ridiculous, and absolutely no bearing in what happened

12 people all came to the same verdict, did they not? It wasn't a hung jury afaik

[brush]

109. White male privilege and racism, pure and simple. Inocent of all charges after causing a Black man's death.

Maybe some don't know but NYer POCs know very well have racist some NYers are. This is just another example. Macho boy Penny didn't have enough sense not choke someone for six minutes straight, yet is still cleared of all charges by a racist jury.

See posts 127 and 131 to what we POCs know about how racist some NYers are.

[Ontheboundry]

111. That don't answer my q

Do we jail someone based off what he may do in the future ?

Nyc is pretty liberal, and i have to assume the jury wasn't an all-white jury, so if a race of different races all come to the same conclusion(s) then, and had access to information/evidence I didn't, then I find little reason to argue with them

[yagotme]

29. Bernie G. went looking for targets.

This was unplanned. Penny used a "rear neck lock" to restrain Neely as Neely was acting out of sorts, yelling, threatening people, throwing "garbage", etc. Witnesses on the train stated they were glad that Penny restrained Neely. 2 other individuals assisted Penny some, one of them appearing to be a POC. If Penny was actually TRYING to kill Neely, a six minute strangle hold would have been about 4 minutes longer than needed. Neely still had a faint pulse when 1st responders arrived, and somewhere between there and the hospital, he passed. They administered Narcan, and CPR. Penny was allowed to leave after talking to police. I believe the prosecutor had a burr under her saddle, and was looking for prison time.

[brush]

34. He didn't have enough sense to know that choking someone for six...

minutes within an inch of death was going too far.

Sure wouldn't want to be his girlfriend or wife.

IMO should've gotten some form of punishment...even a slap on wrist house arrest or a few months probation even. I mean his actions caused another human being's death.

[yagotme]

36. Obviously, the jury thought differently.

Our opinions on the matter are, well, just our opinions.

[Sneederbunk]

41. There were attempts to politicize it, but it never caught fire.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

22. Lack of evidence or evidence contradicting a murder charge. Pretty simple to those who know American law. n/t

[Seeking Serenity]

27. And he wasn't charged with murder.

He was charged with manslaughter and the lesser-included offence of negligent homicide. The State dropped the manslaughter charge when it looked like the jury was hung on that issue.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

32. Good thing he did nothing. Just like the guy who was unfortunately near the NYC CEO. n/t

[brush]

37. A dead body from a choke hold for six minutes is a lack of evidence?Z

Do tell.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

44. The ability to defend yourself from an aggressor, physical or not, has been enshrined in law millennia ago.

Do you have evidence to suggest that this was an offensive act? Clearly the jury didn't think so, so I'd be surprised if you did.

[brush]

49. The guy didn't have eonugh sense to know choking someone for six minutes...

is not a good thing as it can cause death...and it did.

Why he might loose control again since he now knows he can get away with it...the ex-Marine, sympathetic, well intentioned white guy.

Have to bring up that huge elephant in the room everyone is ignoring. If the choker and chokee were reversed, they'd throw the book at a Black guy for what Penny did.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

51. I've gone through CQC training; It's entirely possible to be "Choked" for six minutes without losing consciousness

It's an incapacitating move, but it's largely nonlethal. UNLESS you fight against it.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

57. Everyone's ignoring your "Elephant" for a reason. The color of someone's skin doesn't change the fact

that they're an active, deadly threat to dozens of the population at large.

Being "An Ethnicity", no matter what it is, shouldn't be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card to do whatever the fuck you want, because if anyone stops you it's "RACISM!"

Swap races all you want, but if they were both white or both black or Asian or First Nation or anything, the outcome would be the same.

[brush]

62. Nice attitude, dude. (sarcasm gif here.)

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

33. I think it speaks to how political "justice" is.

Spoiler alert: it also has to do with socioeconomics.

[brush]

39. Maybe racism too. Reverse the choker and the chokee...

If a Black guy had done the choking, I'd bet a month's salary the book would've been thrown at him.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

53. To do (or not) racism is a political choice

with serious socioeconomic factors. One of the main purposes of racism is to keep poor folks from acting across racial lines in ways that might threaten the system of power.

[brush]

56. True enough. I think it was at play in this case.

[Seeking Serenity]

61. A black man was also involved in restraining Neely

He wasn't charged at all.

[brush]

66. He didn't administer a choke hold for six minutes.

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:37 AM - Edit history (2)

Penny did and didn't have enough sense to not choke someone for that long.

Something is not right with that person going Scott free.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

88. You may be right. It may be that they would have wrongly convicted the black man.

It could be that the cause of death happened in the first minute?

Then, he stayed in position in case the person started to struggle again.

I imagine that if I ever had to put some criminal in a choke hold, that I would maintain that position until the authorities or a friendly crowd arrived to help hold them in captivity.

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2011/07/ask-the-fight-doc-is-brain-damage-possible-when-chokes-are-held-too-long

In the internal carotid artery lies a very important structure called the carotid sinus or bulb. Next to this artery runs the vagus nerve. Compressing these structures causes the body to respond in some very significant ways – primarily decreasing blood pressure and heart rate. Some people (usually unbeknown to them) can have a hypersensitive carotid sinus which when compressed/stimulated can cause a profound drop in blood pressure and heart rate. In these cases, a dangerously irregular heart beat (arrhythmia) can ensue.

Let’s put it all together.

The choke goes in, and it’s deep. Your carotid arteries are compressed shut thus significantly reducing blood flow to the brain. The carotid sinus and vagus nerves are also compressed and stimulated to drop blood pressure to the body and heart rate. As luck would have it, you are left in the hands of a less-than-attentive or poorly educated referee, and they are slow to recognize your state of altered consciousness.

Your heart rate and blood pressure continue to plummet. If you happen to be one of those uncommon and unfortunate souls that have a hypersensitive carotid sinus, it isn’t going to be lack of blood flow to the brain that does you in. You should be concerned about that wildly irregular heart beat (arrhythmia).

[brush]

89. Yeah, he held it too long. Six minutes. It was reported on cable...

that he held it even after authorities arrived. Not enough sense I guess to know choking someone for six minutes is not good for their health.

Kinda like the cop who kept his knee on George Floyd's neck for all that time.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

90. "even after authorities arrived" you'd think they would have told him to let go!

Per that article, the damage may have been done in a much shorter time.
In position for 6 minutes is different than choking for 6 minutes.

I do think that once the guy was passed out, and the other people were there to help, he should have switched to providing comfort and fresh air. It saddens me, for sure.

[brush]

91. Emergency Medical corp got ther first I take it, not much detail in the cable report.

[brush]

107. Are you saying you'd keep choking for six minutes or more until authrities arrived?

Last edited Wed Dec 11, 2024, 09:27 PM - Edit history (2)

After what you wrote you have to know that could kill a person.

Apparently macho boy Penny didn't have enough sense either to stop choking Neely to let him breathe. Result. Death. And no charge by racist NYC jury.

See posts 127 and 131 about how racist some NYers are.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

113. I said I would stay in the choke position, that does not mean continuing to choke. And the fact may be that

less than a minute of actual choking may have caused this outcome.
I am not going to assume the jury was racist. I hope they were allowed to remain anonymous.

[brush]

114. He caused a death. Went Scott free with not even a wrist slap of a jail...

sentence of a couple of months, no house arrest, not even probation.

If a Black man had done that to a white person, they would've thrown the book at him.

Some punishment should've happen.

Just as the trump election win showed we live in a misogynist, racist country, the Penny result show it certainly is still racist.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

115. If you argue that restraint would have been considered necessary by a significant portion of rational people, then if

that restraint was applied in a reasonable manner, the restrainer should not be punished in the case that it leads to death.

Your thought of
"If a Black man had done that to a white person, they would've thrown the book at him":
may mean that sometimes that book was thrown unfairly, and the black man should have been found innocent.
In that case, finding a white person guilty for that reason alone, would be like trying to make a right out of 2 wrongs.

I feel sad that mankind has been so mean to others based on race and tribalism, and am aware that it continues to go on at a high degree. There are a few things about this case that make me hopeful, that this was not the case this time.
Although, I did not hear the evidence and so I do not have a final opinion, other than the generalities that I have spoken of.

I understand how guilt seemed obvious to you, based on your belief of 6 minutes of continued neck pressure. We all saw the knee to the neck as continued pressure. I have not reviewed 6 minutes of video or heard from witnesses.

I have not heard anyone say that they were pleading for the choker to release the pressure. I think they would have done so if the pressure had been continuous, as I believe a witness would have been able to perceive such continued effort on the part of the choker.

[brush]

116. Penny went too far. Didn't have enough sense to not choke someone..

for six minutes. Goes Scott free and is applauded.

Not justice IMO.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

117. I agree with you, if your premise is right, "six minutes of choke time" Is there any testimony where they said the choke

was not applied for 6 minutes, only that the arms were left in that position?

I agree with you, that if he squeezed for 6 minutes, there was no justice.

[cabotnn22]

102. Not necessarily

There was a very similar circumstance where a black man stabbed someone to death who was harassing people on a subway in NYC. he was released without bond and no charged were pressed. I'm not sure of the harasser's race, to be honest. Still, I thought having a knife in NYC was illegal - yet this man was let go and never charged.

I do know that when the police arrived on the scene where Daniel Penny was, Jordan Neely still had a pulse. They refused to do CPR because he was "dirty." I think that was incredibly negligent on their part.

[alarimer]

38. He didn't use a gun, but beyond that not much.

I'd imagine he's soon to be invited on the right-wing grifter circuit.

But I know nothing about that guy. Rittenhouse and Zimmerman are definitely pieces of shit, though. They did, in fact, murder people and get away with it. '

This other case is maybe one of a little too much force, maybe not even on purpose. And I do wonder just how hard people worked to revive the victim, given that he was a homeless person with apparent mental issues. I mean, people are very cold these days to the less fortunate, even here.

[brush]

42. Agreed. Hate to be his wife or girlfriend.

Not enough sense to know choking someone for six minutes is not a good thing.

[RockRaven]

43. Penny's use of deadly force was sustained and persistent despite others attempting

to intervene. Sympathy for him is absurd.

[yagotme]

50. The "others" were ASSISTING him, that I could see.

2 others were holding Neely's arms, on and off. At least one of them was a POC, as far as I could determine with a fuzzy vid.

[Bettie]

46. He killed a homeless black man

who seemed to have some other issues, so, he's a "hero".

[Hellbound Hellhound]

48. He killed a psychopathic serial sexual assaulter who happened to be poor. Race irrelevant. Fixed that for you.

I accept GoFundMes as well as Paypal for tips for services rendered.

[brush]

54. Wow. You're a nice guy. (sarcasm gif here).

So sympathetic.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

60. You're right, I am. What, you want I should lower my morality to meet the lowest denominator?

Sorry, I have higher standards.

[brush]

64. Again, sarcasm gif here. Dead body from someone not having enough sense to release...

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)

a six minute choke hold...that guy should go unpunished?

Whew. Hate to live in that world. A woman wouldn't have chance with that macho,ex-Marine.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

70. Sarcasm is a refuge of a weak mind and an incapable soul.

Person went to defend the men and women near him from a psychotic criminal, protecting them from a known abuser and assaulter, and people want to defend him because his skin is a certain color?

Racism in every way.

[brush]

72. Give it a rest. We know by now with your posts where you stand.

[Quiet Em]

75. Ugh

I don't want to live in the society you are promoting.

[brush]

68. We seem to disagree on what higher standards are.

[Sundance1220]

99. Are we now pretending he was just

sitting on that subway car minding his own business not bothering anyone? Because that's simply not true.

[Bettie]

110. He was acting erratic and yes, he was bothering people

but he wasn't attacking, he had not touched anyone, he was indeed being obnoxious.

I didn't know that being annoying is now a death penalty offense to be meted out by any random person in the area.

Are you scolding people for being insufficiently distressed about the death of a CEO, while celebrating the death of a homeless man?

Also: no one there knew about a previous criminal record, so it has ZERO bearing on what that man did to him.

[Quiet Em]

67. I find it very sad and disheartening.

I believe there should have been some penalty. Penny's force was excessive and caused Neely's death.

I hope at the very least Penny offers some remorse, stays away from Fox news and doesn't go on tour in the way of Rittenhouse.

[brush]

78. Agreed. Some punishment seems appropriate.

Even just house arrest or probation. The guy apparently doesn't know it's not good for the human body to be choked for six minutes.

[Sundance1220]

100. Then blame the DA for overcharging

A simple battery charge may have gotten a conviction but I said from the beginning 12 NYers were not going to convict this guy. And frankly, I'm inclined to ignore the opinion of anyone who has never been on a subway with a raving lunatic screaming and throwing things at people. I've been there, it's terrifying being stuck underground in a metal tube with such a person.

[4th]

76. FWIW, right wingers on various forums see no difference and explicitly make the comparison.

... which doesn't absolutely prove anything, but it's very suggestive.

The general consensus is none of them should have even been prosecuted.
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment to peruse such forums, but know your enemy.

No links of course, but easy to find if you care to.

[brush]

77. Thanks. Agreed. There seems to be whiff of maga here on DU of all places.

[manicdem]

79. Not all deaths require prison

For example if some attempts to steal your bag resulting in a tussle. You push them back hard, they fall backwards, and crack their skull on the sidewalk. Should you go to prison for it?

You see someone involved in a serious car accident and is unconscious. You try to help them but you messed something up and they die. Example you lie them on their back where they choke on blood and suffocate instead of lying them on their side per your CPR training. Should you go to prison?

Penny appeared to have good intentions to help protect others in a situation we may may one day see ourselves in. If you punish people like this, then no one will help others whether it's from criminals, CPR, accidents, etc.

And Neely was the cause of the trouble in the first place and people were afraid from past incidents. He had drugs in his system. I believe the autopsy didn't indicate any injuries around the neck which a choke would cause. It's possible Neely's medical condition combined with the drugs and the struggle resulted in his death.

[brush]

83. Penny and no one else in that car knew anything about his past...

did you actually add that to what began as a cogent argument?

And there is a death that resulted from Penny's action...choking someone for six minutes.

[lame54]

80. Skittles

[lame54]

81. The way the authorities handled them

[Polybius]

84. One was out looking to kill, one was out looking for trouble, and one jumped in and potentially saved lives n/t

[brush]

87. But didn't have sense enough to know not to choke someone for six minutes.

Nothing wrong with that?

[Sewa]

92. Seems closer to the cop that killed

George Floyd n he was found guilty 💀

[Sundance1220]

101. That cop that killed Mr. Floyd

wasn't protecting anyone from anything. This guy was.

[brush]

112. He still caused his death. It's blatant white, male privilege and obvious racism...

hat he gets off Scott free without even a wrist slap couple of months in jail or house arrest, hot even probation.

Such obvious racism. The crowd applauds.

[Blue_Tires]

95. As someone who lost a lot of friends on DU over Zimmerman

You do not want to re-open that can of worms...

[mathematic]

98. Serious Answer: Zimmerman & Rittenhouse were charged with crimes of intent. Penny was not.

The prosecution did not claim Penny acted with intent to kill and accepted that he did not.

If YOU can accept that difference then you may be able to understand why people view these cases differently. I haven't followed the details of the case so I don't really have an opinion about the verdict.

[CrispyQ]

104. And Mangione.

IMO, no difference & they should all be convicted of murder, Penny maybe manslaughter, IDK the laws.

That said, I still don't feel any sympathy for the CEO.

[ThePartyThatListens]

106. None, they're all

White, entitled and inept.

We're now in WEI era.

Thanks Trump!

[happy feet]

108. Your broad brush is annoying

Why not respond directly to anyone who has shared the view you post?

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

118. It wasn't like I thought, I thought he would be passed out within a minute, but he wasn't.

Quite a good and long video of the scene.
https://www.thefp.com/p/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-f-train-bodycam-video

A woman says, "not a hard choke hold, just enough to secure him."

I believe they say that he was released within 51 seconds of movement stopping.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/09/us/daniel-penny-subway-death-trial/index.html

Gonzalez could be heard in video footage of the incident saying Penny wasn’t “squeezing” Neely’s neck in the 51 seconds before he released the chokehold.