2nd degree murder?

[spanone]

New York prosecutors charge Luigi Mangione with murder
From CNN's Taylor Romine and Josh Campbell

Luigi Mangione has been charged with one count of second-degree murder, two counts of second-degree criminal possession of a weapon, one count of second-degree possession of a forged document, and one count of third-degree criminal possession of a weapon, online court documents show.

CNN is working to identify Mangione’s legal representative.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/brian-thompson-unitedhealthcare-death-investigation-12-9-24?t=1733856300697

[bucolic_frolic]

1. Oh, yeah. 2nd degree.

Ivy League discount.

[spanone]

3. Must be.

[onenote]

22. Must not be. One could try reading the law before making assumptions.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

[Renew Deal]

45. The Ivy League teaches research skills

It’s weird to see any-intellectualism promoted on a democratic website.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. NYS Penal Code:

Only murders of Police are First Degree Murder

[spanone]

4. Crazy. Thanks.

[dpibel]

10. Statute says differently

https://newyork.public.law/laws/n.y._penal_law_section_125.27

It's very long, so I'm not going to cut/paste it here. But it contains quite a number of circumstances other than killing a policeman that can result in First Degree charges, including killing a witness, killing for hire, and various felony murders.

OTOH, it doesn't (on quick read) seem to contain the old-fashioned premeditation requirement.

On edit: Not saying that the NYS first-degree statute covers this particular crime. Just that it's not limited to cop killing.

Only thing I can see on quick scan that might result in an upgrade of Mangione's charge is 1(a)(xiii), which says killing for terrorism is first degree.

[Mike 03]

12. Wild. Does that mean that Rex Heuermann

the so called Gilgo Beach serial killer, was or will be charged with multiple counts of second degree murder?

Does NY have a "special circumstances" statute, for murders combined with other felonies (ie., multiple murders, mass murder, rape, torture, robbery, kidnapping). Or, since NY doesn't have the death penalty, make it doesn't make much of a difference.

I guess it just means if convicted the bad guy still gets a huge sentence, maybe thousands of years behind bars.

(I don't have an opinion either way on whether this is good or bad. It's just interesting.)

[dpibel]

14. That's felony murder

Yes, it's in the NYS statute.

[onenote]

18. Not 'only' murders of police. Why do people post inaccurate/incomplete information?

Here is the New York murder in the first degree statute:

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

[elleng]

6. First-degree murder is the most severe homicide crime and is always premeditated and carried out with intent.

Second-degree murder is carried out with intent but with no premeditation. Finally, third-degree murder is the lowest criminal homicide with no intent to kill and no premeditation

[Sympthsical]

7. New York has its own degrees with this stuff

I'd read that somewhere and looked it up. It's wikipedia, so you know, but it gives a decent primer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_New_York_law

[elleng]

9. Yes, that's where I found this.

First-degree murder is the most serious homicide offense in New York State. It is defined as the intentional killing of a person without justification with one of the following aggravating factors:

The victim was a police officer, peace officer, correctional employee, judge, or a criminal case witness
The murder was committed while the perpetrator was serving a life sentence
The murder was committed with torture of the victim
The murder was committed as an act of terrorism
The murder was committed during the commission or attempted commission of one of the felonies under New York's felony murder laws.
Murder committed for hire (with the charge applying to both the murderer and the person who paid the murderer)
A defendant under the age of 18 cannot be charged with first-degree murder. First-degree murder is punishable by 20 years to life in prison and thus must serve at least 20 years in prison before being eligible for parole , or life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. The death penalty was ruled struck down in New York in 2004.[2][3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_New_York_law#:~:text=Second%2Ddegree%20murder%20is%20punishable,the%20victim%20was%20under%2014.

[onenote]

21. More detail regarding first degree murder under New York law.

Seehttps://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

First Degree murder covers more circumstances than those summarized on Wikipedia with additional conditions/requirements.

[spanone]

8. It appears this was premeditated and had intent, but as others pointed out, it's New York law.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

20. So could a jury find him not guilty because he DID clearly premeditate, but it doesn't match the charge?

Asking for some friends who may or may not be in the jury pool.

[onenote]

23. Both first degree and second degree murder in New York require a showing of intent. So no.

The difference is that first degree murder applies when the target of the murder falls into certain categories, eg., police, firefighters, correctional officials, judges, criminal case witnesses, etc. etc.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

24. Damn. Thank you for the clarification. Nt

[Ocelot II]

11. This is the normal process in most states.

The suspect is initially charged by complaint and arraigned on a 2nd degree murder charge, but because 1st degree murder has to be charged by grand jury indictment, that will come later, and the charge will be amended.

[DeepWinter]

13. 15 to life

in NY State.

[rollin74]

15. What are the chances that jury nullification might come into play in this case?

I could see that possibly becoming an issue down the line

[TheProle]

17. It's possible with a venue change

But I would guess that if it's a jury from Manhattan, there's not necessarily going to be a lot of traction on releasing someone who brazenly executed someone on their streets in broad daylight.

[ecstatic]

44. we haven't even seen jury nullification with trump's numerous

grand juries and trial juries. I don't think we're going to suddenly see it here unless something major has changed since this summer.

[ForgedCrank]

16. What the

hell is going on in that city? Premeditated murder is now only 2nd degree?

[onenote]

19. What is going on is that NY distinguishes between murder with aggravating factors and other intentional murders

Google is your friend.

New York Law, First Degree Murder: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

New York Law, Second Degree Murder:https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.25

[ForgedCrank]

29. See that

line about terroristic activity?
In addition, also directly from your second link:
-(b)- Was not armed with a deadly weapon, or any instrument, article or
substance readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury
and of a sort not ordinarily carried in public places by law-abiding
persons; and"


Actually reading the google results is your friend.

[onenote]

30. So did you read the definition of terrorism in 490.05, paragraph b of subdivision 1? Or the language preceding "b"?

I did.

Terrorism means
"activities that involve a violent act or acts dangerous to human life that are in violation of the criminal laws of this state and are intended to:
(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or
coercion; or
(iii) affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder,
assassination or kidnapping.

I imagine the prosecution have doubts about making out a case of terrorism under that definition.

Also, I'm not sure why you think paragraph b of subdivision 3 of the second degree murder provision -- the language you quote -- has any relevance here. That language describes a specific affirmative defense to a charge of second degree murder that is based on a felony murder theory -- the commission of murder in the course of committing another crime:

"3. Acting either alone or with one or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape in the
first degree, a crime formerly defined in section 130.50 of this title, the crime of sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse, escape in the first degree, or escape in the second degree, and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of immediate flight
therefrom, he, or another participant, if there be any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants; except that in any
prosecution under this subdivision, in which the defendant was not the only participant in the underlying crime, it is an affirmative defense
that the defendant:

(a) Did not commit the homicidal act or in any way solicit, request,
command, importune, cause or aid the commission thereof; and

(b) Was not armed with a deadly weapon, or any instrument, article or
substance readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury
and of a sort not ordinarily carried in public places by law-abiding
persons; and

(c) Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant was
armed with such a weapon, instrument, article or substance; and

(d) Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant
intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death or serious
physical injury...

[ForgedCrank]

33. I see

a case for 1st degree murder. You can re-interpret it as you see fit, but the inconsistent charges being brought in this state has my attention, and something isn't right

[onenote]

34. You can see it. The expert prosecutors don't.

I don't see the terrorism definition being stretched to fit this case.

[ForgedCrank]

35. I'm not

asking you to agree with me.

[dpibel]

37. Well, what you see is not what the law is

What do you even mean by "inconsistent charges being brought in this state"?

You've been pointed to the New York STATE statute defining first degree murder. You may not like it. You may think you know better what Murder 1 is. But you should at least try to read the actual statute that governs this case before you get too exercised.

[ForgedCrank]

38. Funny thing

about that. I did read it, and it appears to me that this individual is not being charged at the level that he should be.
Don't like my opinion? Ask me of I care. Actually, let me jut answer it now. No, I don't care.
Go insult someone else, I'm not interested in kindergarten games.

[dpibel]

39. You seem a little sensitive

And your "insult someone else" line has a bit of pot/kettle about it.

But do enjoy your prosecutorial career. I'm sure it will go splendidly!

[ForgedCrank]

40. Not really,

I'm just growing intolerant of the "debate" methods of some people here. The passive-aggressive silliness is lazy and it bores me.
I find it difficult to find anyone willing to argue in good faith.
So there's your answer. Have a great evening.

[dpibel]

41. What, exactly, is passive-aggressive about citing a statute?

I'm thinking that you may not have quite as good a handle on your own style as you think you do.

Anger and attempts to bully might not be the most effective approach.

But, by all means: You do you. It clearly pleases you.

If it helps you at all with your analysis:

You made a statement that was unsupported by the New York statutes.

A poster linked the statutes for you.

You decided that the terrorism section applies.

The poster pointed you to the very definition of terrorism that is referenced in the Murder 1 statute and observed that it would be quite a stretch to make that apply.

What part of that is passive-aggressive? What part of it is bad faith argument?

[Iggo]

42. How dare you counter feelings with evidence!

You jerk, you.

[dpibel]

36. "That city"?

You do realize, of course, that NYC doesn't have its own murder ordinances.

The degrees of murder in NYC are the same as in Poughkeepsie.

[Jacson6]

25. In NY State law you must prove intent to commit a murder. They can go with 2nd degree murder and they

can get the same sentence for a conviction. With his families bank roll I'm sure this trial will drag on for years.

[brush]

26. Sure seems like 1st degree. I mean with the careful planning and all...

which from my understanding is what constitutes 1st degree murder. 2nd degree being a crime of passion, you didn't plan it, just a flash of anger motivated the crime.

Going to be interesting. Are they already starting out with a lesser charge?

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the healthcare industry, but you can't just go hunting someone and killing them.

[onenote]

31. First degree is specifically in NY law.

Here's the definition of first degree murder. It doesn't sound like the murder of the UHC CEO to me.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

[Iggo]

27. Here in California, "lying in wait" is a special circumstance.

Is that also true in New York?

EDIT: I just read up on New York’s125.27 and I didn’t see it there.

[Trenzalore]

28. Theiy know he killed the guy

They have to build the case for premeditated murder. The charges will be upgraded. He was held in PA intially on weapons charges since the murder didn't take place in PA

[onenote]

32. Second degree murder and first degree murder are both "intent" crimes.

The difference relates to the circumstances and none of the circumstances that define first degree murder apply here. So it won't be "upgraded".

Here are the two definitions:

First Degree:
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

Second Degree:
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.25

[Mountainguy]

43. 2nd degree is premeditated murder in NY

1st degree is premeditated murder with one or more outlined escalators.

Murder of a
Police Officer
Peace Office
Firefighter
EMT
Paramedic
Corrections Officer

in the line of their duty.

Takes place in a state corrections institution

Is a murder for hire

Is committed while in commission of another specific felony (burglary, kidnapping, etc)

Might be a few more thing in there but that's the gist.




This is clearly 2nd degree murder under NY law.