I need to get this off my chest.

[TomSlick]

There are several posts today attacking less progressive Democratic politicians. I found the posts attacking John Fetterman and calling him off-color names particularly disturbing.

The DU Terms of Service include

Don't bash Democratic public figures. Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures.

I don't have a problem with posts disagreeing with a Democratic politician but there should not be any room for personal, trashing comments about Democrats.

The most conservative Democrat is better than the most nearly moderate Republican.

[Frasier Balzov]

1. I served on a jury today which put a post trashing Fetterman on trial.

Do you think I made a mistake by voting to let it stay?

[TomSlick]

5. How you decide an alert on jury duty is a matter for your conscience.

If you concluded that the post did not violate the terms of service, there is no basis for criticism.

How I would have decided is irrelevant.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

50. Per Forum Rules - "Don't post messages about site rules, enforcement, juries..."

Why we have this rule: The purpose of Democratic Underground is to discuss politics, issues, and current events. Open discussion of how the website is run tends to distract from our core purpose.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[TomSlick]

63. I did not post about how DU is run. Or at least no more than you.

I simply asked for civility in the critique of Democratic public figures.

[Frasier Balzov]

66. I think it's me who is being admonished here?

But even a juror in a criminal trial is entitled to disclose how they voted.

So in my opinion the criticism is invalid.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

74. I'm sorry. I do not find it a big thing, one way or the other, I just found the OP fascinating in the way

it broke a rule to quote a rule, and your post was just a little more deeply embedded, and so captured my imagination even more.

I'll delete my post if you like. It seems too late to put the jeanie back in the bottle

[Frasier Balzov]

78. I'll take my knocks if I deserve them.

Thanks for your offer though!

Let all our words stand.

[Ilikepurple]

72. Seems disingenuous as you lean heavily on TOS in OP and responses.

You simply implied certain posts were in violation of terms of service as self appointed arbiter. BTW, does the no more than you argument work for you often? You could have left TOS out of it and just made an appeal for more civility, but that part of the TOS was your cudgel. You’re an attorney and Fetterman’s a politician, I would expect both of you to have thicker skin than this.

[TomSlick]

75. My skin is thick enough. There is nothing anyone can call me that I haven't been called before.

We ought not be calling Democratic public figures insulting names. We should support Democrats. When we disagree with Democrats, we should do so in a civil manner.

[Jack Valentino]

69. Depends on what it said, exactly--- it isn't against the rules to disagree with our leaders,

but "trashing" them and name-calling them is definitely against those rules.

[Frasier Balzov]

73. It was a general renunciation of him as a lost soul.

Lost to poor judgement and bad governance.

[Jack Valentino]

79. Sounds like a "border-line" post...

If the post was in your "exact words" here, not sure how I would have voted on it. One could argue either way.


I'm not happy with Fetterman lately either, but mostly just about some of his public statements, rather than actual votes or actions. Unhappy or not, I'm not ready to throw him under the bus because of public statements. He managed to win in Pennsylvania, when the other incumbent just lost it (which was an unexpected defeat, to me)

[Groundhawg]

71. Yes. rules are rules and we are guests.

[anciano]

2. Agreed.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

3. I disagree

Some of the dems no longer truly represent the party. They are bashing us. They work for us and need our respect, not the other way around. They should not be protected on this site, or any other place. Anyone who is calling for Trump's pardon is a threat to democracy and is not a Democrat in good standing. They should be mercilessly called out and literally forced to step down.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

4. THIS!!!! n/t

[question everything]

6. And who defines what or who "represents the party?" He has a right to his opinions

There are severals, like Clyburn, without whom we would have lost in 2020, who hold a similar opinion for reasons

[BeerBarrelPolka]

12. And

And I have a right to my opinion. If their anti-American crap can be posted here, then a rebuttal should be allowed. I repeat again, no one should defend anyone who asks for a Trump pardon.

[TomSlick]

7. Nevertheless, bashing Democrats violates the Terms of Service.

There are forums for bashing Democrats on the Internet, e.g. X. This should not be one of those forums.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

10. Feel free to alert and the jury will make its decision

You believe in juries, right?

[TomSlick]

13. You can't alert on a string of responses at the same time.

I believe in juries, both here and in court. However, I recognize that juries are not infallible or always make the best decision for the common good.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

11. I will

I'm willing to bet the terms of service were devised before we had a felon, rapist, murderer elected President.

[TomSlick]

17. Nevertheless, those are the Terms of Service.

Any community must have agreed standards to function. The TOS are ours.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

19. OK

Then ANY repost from a Dem politician that speaks Republican talking points such as pardoning Trump should be removed from this site as a TOS violation.

[TomSlick]

28. I do not find a Term of Service that would be violated for reporting what a politician said.

Now, if in doing so, a poster used

disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks

about such a Democratic politician, that would be a violation.

[Emile]

32. +1 SPOT ON!

[Just_Vote_Dem]

35. THANK YOU!!!!! n/t

[niyad]

58. THANK YOU!!!

[TomSlick]

60. Not so.

I have not criticized DU rules or their enforcement. I have not attempted to limit discussion or criticism of Democrats. I have only asked that we all refrain from personally insulting Democratic public figures.

Nevertheless, if you think I have violated a TOS, you should alert on my post and let a jury decide.

[leftstreet]

62. +1

[TomSlick]

64. Please see my reply to your earlier similar post.

[Autumn]

8. Pointing out that a politicians is supporting something the traitorous republicans are doing is not

bashing. I really don't believe Dems need to bow and say "Yes Sir may I have another. "Especially since we Democrats are under attack from that other fucking party every moment of the day. We all get letters and calls telling us to support them with money, time, help get them elected so they can fight for us. Yeah, fight for US. Deciding to support people in the republican party is not fighting for us.

[TomSlick]

9. I have no problem with posts disagreeing with Democrats.

The line is crossed when personal or vulgar attacks are made.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

23. I have

I have absolutely no problem with you. I enjoy your posts. But let me just add that when these dems support pardoning a man that wants to cut Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid, let women suffer, etc, etc, it is 100% personal. The gloves need to come off.

[Sympthsical]

43. Does the gloves coming off help with typing or something?

I know my usual sedate pace is about 90 wpm. But when I've had it with someone, look out. 120 incoming!

[Just_Vote_Dem]

44. I can do 25 on a good day

I'm not a very good hunt and pecker.

Maybe I should rephrase that.....

Nah.

[Sympthsical]

47. Probably a blessing

I'm a classical pianist and tap away at friction speeds. Which is usually how I think I'm making a quick response, and then it's five paragraphs later and even I'm like, "Jesus. Hire an editor."

[BeerBarrelPolka]

45. 90WPM

I go about 30 WPM (wrongs per minute).

No one types worse than me

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

83. I think I have dyslexia of the fingers. lol, so I put your statement to the test. My fingers seem

to know where the backspace key is, like the back of my hand. (and it isn't an easy key from the home keys)

I probably hit the back space at a ration of 1 to 9. Sometimes in rapid succession.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

84. I

I don't even know what a backspace key is lol.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

85. OMG, I don't know how you get by. rotfl

[niyad]

57. Who defines "vulgar"???

[TomSlick]

65. Part of my definition for vulgar is language I would not use concerning my friends.

Suggesting that a Democratic public figure is the last stop in the digestive tract is a good example.

"Vulgar" is like obscenity. None of us can provide a good definition but we know it when we see it.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

16. Absolutely.

The things some people get unnerved about....

[surfered]

14. Fetterman marches to a different drummer and I appreciate

The fact he’s in a state that voted for Trump. I would have preferred if he had signed up for Bluesky instead of Truth Social.

I disagree with him on pardoning Trump in the hush money case. Trump’s Justice Dept put Cohen in jail partly for his role in the same crime.

But, as the adults in the room, we should be able to disagree with policy positions without the name calling

[TomSlick]

21. My point exactly.

We should be able to discuss the issues like adults and not resort to calling Democrats vile names.

[Meowmee]

15. In general I agree but we are in extraordinary times

And suggesting pardoning the orange psycho is one point where I draw the line. I don't think I did any of the above when I commented on some of those posts but I want to feel free to criticize things like that and policy etc, and I don't completely here due to the way the forum is run.

[TomSlick]

22. We are free to criticize who we will.

The line is calling Democrats names or making personal attacks.

[HereForTheParty]

18. How about Manchin and Sinema?

Are you offended by posts criticizing them?

[TomSlick]

24. I not offended by posts criticizing anyone.

The Terms of Service do not forbid criticizing Democrats - only

disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks

[bottomofthehill]

42. Do you think we would be better off with Joe Manchin or Jim Justice in the senate.

[canetoad]

20. Thank you Tom

For a moment there, I thought it was a little cannibalism circle.

[TomSlick]

25. From many of the replies above, your initial inclination may have been correct.

I guess I should be happy that no one has called me a nasty name - yet.

[Prairie Gates]

26. I feel like this is an issue for DU juries

Honest question: did you file some alerts that didn't work, so you then went with this "posting about it" route? I'm genuinely curious.

[TomSlick]

34. You cannot alert on multiple replies in a post.

There is no mechanism for dealing with this:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219811386
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219810745
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219811805
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1034134374

[Celerity]

39. you are again in violation DU TOS, this time via you directly targeting DU posters

[Just_Vote_Dem]

40. It was alerted n/t

[Celerity]

56. well, those DUers now have targets painted on their backs, unfortunately

[Quiet Em]

81. I'm the author of the first post you linked.

I did not make a personal attack against Senator Fetterman. I do not agree with what he is doing,

[LakeArenal]

27. The no bashing Democrats ambiguous to me.

Seems you cannot be totally upset with any action a Democrat takes without someone considering it Dem bashing. We should be allowed to be angry at other democrats and express that. Certainly we should not make personal attacks but some issues individuals take very personally. Why shouldn’t we be allowed to express that? It’s all just opinions anyway.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

33. Absolutely

These politicians literally have our lives at stake. People have died because of Trump and other presidents and even local level politicians. I'm too much of a fighter and care too much about people to sit back and let them run amok. If they can kill us, they should be able to handle being called a name. I'm sorry, but I'm not a sycophant and maybe I have overstayed my welcome here. But I never thought I would ever live to hear and read what some of these Dems are writing and saying. It's abominable.

[SunImp]

51. For some any and all criticism is Bashing

[wryter2000]

29. The alert system doesn't always do what we want

I am still furious at the people who were so cruel against Joe Biden after the debate.

Use the ignore function.

[TomSlick]

36. I have resisted using the ignore function for years now.

I really want to see what people are posting, even if only to gauge what remains of civility among Democrats.

[Think. Again.]

31. Pretending that rightwing ideology is correct...

....simply because it's spoken by someone registered as a Democrat is very, very dangerous.

[TomSlick]

38. We are not asked to ignore what Democrats say.

We are not asked to avoid disagreeing with Democrats.

The Terms of Service only require that we "not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures."

[brush]

37. I don't know what's up with him. Joining truth social, asking for charges to be dropped on the criminal.

Can't beat 'em, join 'em?W

WTH?

[applegrove]

41. Who says Fetterman has not gone to Truth Social

to rescue people behind enemy lines. He's not the only Dem to suggest pardons for Trump (to keep him from being a loonatic in power). Clyburn suggested the same thing. I mean Trump is going to pardon himself anyways.

[Celerity]

46. Come on m8, Fetterman said the NY trial and conviction of Trump was a politically motivated attack. He is undermining

the rule of law and democracy itself with his Truth Social and other social media postings.

He is not trying to

rescue people behind enemy lines

He is giving succor to the motherfucking MAGAts.

[applegrove]

48. Some Democrats think the hush money trial was not neccessary.

I agree with all the investigations and am not for a pardons, but I am not a centrist. I am also in Canada so there is a buffer between me and living in a country run by Trump, Musk and the Heritage Foundation.

[Celerity]

52. when the US sneezes, the rest of the world often catches a cold

I am also in Canada so there is a buffer between me and living in a country run by Trump, Musk and the Heritage Foundation.

I am much further away from the US (here in Sweden) than you are, and I can assure you that Trump's election has vastly increased the chances of us (Sweden) being in the cross hairs of Putin.

[applegrove]

55. Yes. The risk is real for the world.

[Quiet Em]

61. While I don't agree with Rep. Clyburn, Clyburn was talking about the federal charges for which

Trump has not been convicted, (yeah, because it was stalled). Fetterman is discussing a NY State fraud conviction, by a NY State jury, for which Trump would be unlikely to serve time but would face a financial penalty. There is a huge difference.

[Hope22]

80. Does T need a pardon with presidential immunity?

And….nothing will keep him from being a lunatic in power!! Go ahead and pardon him and he will define new threats as he viciously mocks the people who pardoned him. This whole situation is an exercise of a madman each of us represents a potential victim to him. As * once said, "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." – Washington, D.C., August 5, 2004.

[Ilikepurple]

54. I'm guessing the forum policies are better equipped to deal with this issue.

It seems that the less progressive leaning members here have taken it upon themselves to keep others in line. I agree with Celerity in that this kind of post is most likely intended to circumvent forum moderation standards and quiet speech. If this is not the case, let the system take care of our transgressions or petition for new terms of service or standards in applying them.

[Irish_Dem]

59. Most forums give people a bit of breathing room when bad news hits.

When the people on the forum are in shock, disbelief and upset.

Here on DU, people have been reeling since Nov 5 and the bad news keeps coming.
Now we have been hit with more bad news about our own party leaders whom we admire and respect.

I myself refrained from commenting about certain Dems due to the TOS.
But I do not fault others for blowing off steam about what feels like more betrayal and abandonment.
To pretend all is rosy and a walk in the park when facts are clearly otherwise is dishonest
and the definition of insanity.

Tom you are thinking like an attorney and I am thinking like a therapist.

I don't like an echo chamber, I like to hear other points of view, and I believe people have a right to
their feelings and to express them. But I also understand there are rules we agreed to follow.

I think the truth is in the middle. Most forum owners let people rant a bit when bad news hits,
then remind people of the TOS.

[TomSlick]

68. Guilty as charged.

As an attorney, I recognize the needs for rules in any community. As an attorney, I appreciate the need for civil discourse. As an attorney, I understand that we all agreed to the Terms of Service when we signed up on DU - we entered into a contract.

[Irish_Dem]

76. But you cannot always strong arm and control the majority of people on a forum.

When there is a crisis, emergency, or bad news.

People are going to emote and speak out instinctively.

We see respected, long term DU members needing to express their thoughts and feelings.

We are facing some very bleak prospects as a country, we know what may be in store for us.
And it is not good. People are facing loss of SS, Medicare, increased costs, housing problems, etc.
These are life and death issues for many. Some may have good circumstances and avoid the worst of it.

Leadership is not about wagging fingers and reminding people of minor contractual agreements when
they are terrified of the future and face some serious possible losses, maybe even death.

Many people on this site have been very generous with their time, help, financial support.
They spend time helping out a great deal.

I think they deserve a bit of respect and breathing room. Not lectures.

[TomSlick]

77. I accept your admonition.

[Iggo]

67. Meta !!!

[ALBliberal]

70. Fetterman is a huge disappointment especially recently

He has shafted all of us that believed he was a warrior yes we don’t care about clothing. Yes we on the left get mental health issues. We gave him soooo much latitude.
Me in little old NM I feel very let down! He’s all cozying up to Rubio? First thing that upset me. There have been several things after that. His own voters in Pennsylvania are upset.

Alert on me. I do not care. He needs to be Primaried. Conor Lamb? I think he’s from the state? I will throw money at that.

If we still have free elections after the awful lay down and die behavior of Fetterman and his ilk.

[Blue_Tires]

82. All I'll say is there is a very clear battle line and folks damn well better figure out which side they're on...