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H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 08:51 PM 3 hrs ago

Defining Homicide & Murder

" Whoever hates his brother is a murderer" -- John 3:15


The above quote was my late friend Rubin "Hurricane" Carter's favorite in the last five years of his life. I am using it in hopes of having a conversation on what people think defines "murder," rather than to be preachy. For twenty years of his life, Rubin was a convicted triple murderer. Two months after the violent crime, the lead investigator referred to Rubin and his co-defendant as "ni__ers, Muslims, animals, and murders." (NY Times; 9-27-74)

Perhaps the lead investigator had the modus operandi in mind. The two murderers used a shotgun and a pistol to kill the people in the bar. A year earlier, Malcolm X was murdered by two men, with a shotgun and a pistol, with the leader coming from Trenton, NJ. Two of the men picked up the night of the triple murder -- who failed polygraphs and were incarcerated for a time -- were NOI members, connected with the on-going competition for control of the local bars and the money made on "the numbers." (As Malcolm noted in his autobiography, a great deal of money was made on vice.)

Rubin's conviction was eventually overturned by the federal courts. A few years after Rubin's death, the actual gunman Rubin was accused of being confessed to the crime on his death bed, identifying the other man as well. They were the two men that I mentioned in the above paragraph. Yet today, on internet boxing forums, I frequently read posts calling Rubin a murderer.

Thus, there are many definitions of murder and murderers. There is the legal definition, which includes murder as one type of homicide. There are a variety of opinions in the general public. On this very forum, for instance, a friend told me a person cannot be called a "murderer" if they were not convicted in a court of law. That would exclude the two men who slaughtered three people in the Paterson, NJ bar, something I disagree with. And there is Rubin, who in order to win his freedom, recognized he had to go inside himself to find that which is above the law.

Is Kyle Rittenhouse a murderer? He was charged with homicide, but a jury deemed him "not guilty." I suspect that many forum members disagree. How about Chris Kyle? The popularity of the 2014 movie "American Sniper" suggest many considered him a hero. I'm not sure that killing 200 Iraqi citizens opposed to the bush/Cheney invasion was heroic. That would tend to mean that bush and Cheney were heroic, by association.

In our country, states tend to have three levels of homicide: murder, manslaughter, and justifiable. Both first and second degree murder cover intentional acts. For sake of keeping this essay shorter than I find interesting, I'll skip over preterintentional killing and/or manslaughter. There are also at least seven types of murder covered by federal law. (There may be more, but I'm dealing with a head cold, feel sick as shit, and thus my mind isn't at the reduced peak usually associated with old age. But I count seven. And international law is a whole different kettle of fish, and I tend to be a vegetarian while suffering from a cold.)

It is interesting that the general public appears split on the case of the insurance CEO. Some think it was a justifiable homicide in a class war. Many recognize it was murder, do not approve of it, but do not have sympathy for the victim. And many think it was a brutal murder with zero justification. By NYS law, the young man will be prosecuted for murder, and almost certainly be found guilty.

I think the case can be made that the top levels of the insurance industry might be charged with manslaughter -- the unintentional killing of human beings without malice aforethought -- when they mistake human beings as mere statistics. They are as intoxicated by money as any drunk driver in a fatal crash.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Defining Homicide & Murder (Original Post) H2O Man 3 hrs ago OP
would suspect that most of us can find several things to both agree, and disagree, with here stopdiggin 3 hrs ago #1
Thanks! H2O Man 2 hrs ago #2
Yes. You're absolutely right. stopdiggin 2 hrs ago #3
Interesting. H2O Man 1 hr ago #4
There are legal definitions and personal usage. Happy Hoosier 1 hr ago #6
Exactly. H2O Man 1 hr ago #8
And I do not consider Rittenhouse a murderer stopdiggin 49 min ago #10
You cannot put the fox in charge of the hen house and then put all of the blame on the fox. DontBelieveEastisEas 1 hr ago #5
My daughter lives in Europe. H2O Man 1 hr ago #7
The insurance industry's favorite targets are the weak, the old, the poor, the uneducated dalton99a 52 min ago #9
Right. H2O Man 31 min ago #12
The 'next Luigi' is watching... Jack Valentino 48 min ago #11
I saw coverage H2O Man 29 min ago #13

stopdiggin

(12,936 posts)
1. would suspect that most of us can find several things to both agree, and disagree, with here
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 09:15 PM
3 hrs ago

Pointing to one of my own - I'm a bit chary of the idea that 'murder' is not something defined by the state (or at least concerted social convention?). If murder is just something that we all 'make up our own minds' about - then it becomes just another word - no better no worse, that we can a sling about with complete freedom and disregard - with the result that it essentially comes to mean little or nothing. Just another slur to be cast about and lathered upon the 'enemy'. Is that amounting to a social good, benefit?

I'd argue not - while having to acknowledge that (in this case, and many others) that horse has long since fled the barn.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
2. Thanks!
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 10:13 PM
2 hrs ago

The state does define "murder." No question about that. At the same time, not everyone charged & convicted is a murderer, nor is everyone found "not guilty" not a murderer.

stopdiggin

(12,936 posts)
3. Yes. You're absolutely right.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 10:48 PM
2 hrs ago

And the plain truth is - to some degree we DO make up our own minds about these things ...
Ergo - the anti-abortion folks that have firmly affixed the label - and without doubt believe in their own minds ...
Flip side - we have people in our community that are adamant that Daniel Perry committed 'murder' - despite any 'verdict that might be handed down.

For my own part - I only point out that this places us on a slippery slope.

H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
4. Interesting.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:23 PM
1 hr ago

The abortion issue is an important example, and one that I had in mind as I was writing the OP. I was 100% intent upon mentioning it, but being sick as a dog, obviously completely overlooked it! Usually my errors on DU are simply my being stupid, but I plead illness on that. Either way, thank you for mentioning it.

Having four adult children, I can say that abortion never crossed my mind, nor their mothers, that I am aware of. Likewise, telling a woman what to do with their bodies would never cross my mind. (*** Unless, while in bed, I quoted Jim Morrison: "Go real slow -- you'll like it more and more.) I favor everyone having full access to health care.

Now, I've read a bit about the Daniel Perry case. But I do not know enough about it to have an opinion. So I have not read or participated in any of the discussions on the case here on DU. I have commented on numerous other legal cases discussed here over the years. I keep in mind that "innocent until proven guilty" only has meaning in the context of our legal system, and does not apply to the court of public opinion.

Thus, though the case was decided well before DU was created, there were some spirited debates on the OJ Simpson case. Despite his being found "not guilty" in the criminal case, it is possible to make a case -- maybe even a strong case -- that he was guilty as sin. And, unless one knows the actual case, people could think my late friend Rubin was guilty. I'll note that a person actually said to me, "Look at pictures of him! You can tell he's a murderer!" So that court of public opinion is hardly fool-proof. Too often, people have a bias rather than an opinion ..... this being the exact reason only one with an education and background can give an opinion in criminal court.

While I think the healthcare exec case is definitely one of murder, and the courts will deliver justice, I do think it raises interesting topics of discussion. For example, will the two houses of Congress institute any reforms when it comes to the corporate twins named insurance and big pharma? How likely is any politician who takes donations from them to take a noble stand? And why is it that discussions of class warfare discouraged in polite society?

Happy Hoosier

(8,487 posts)
6. There are legal definitions and personal usage.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:47 PM
1 hr ago

The state defines “murder,” but I’m guessing most of us have disagreed with courts that have acquitted someone on murder charges.

Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer and no acquittal will change my mind.

H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
8. Exactly.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:49 PM
1 hr ago

In my lifetime, in the deep south, if white men murdered black people, there was very little chance of facing legal consequences.

stopdiggin

(12,936 posts)
10. And I do not consider Rittenhouse a murderer
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 12:01 AM
49 min ago

based both on my understanding of the circumstances and particulars there - and on the fact that a jury of his (and my) peers said otherwise. Similarly with OJ Simpson - cannot find myself comfortable with affixing the label - even though scores of people are 100% convinced that "he got away with it". (all the while, I might add - not having an iota more evidence or intimate knowledge of that case - than I myself have.)

DontBelieveEastisEas

(1,139 posts)
5. You cannot put the fox in charge of the hen house and then put all of the blame on the fox.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:38 PM
1 hr ago

It is a big flaw in our health care system.

While we would legally expect the insurance companies to make fair decisions on what should be covered, even if it might take all, or most, of their profit at times, it is foolish to expect them to do so.

If the oversight doesn't reign them in, I can see why they pursue higher corporate profits, and feel like they are just doing their job. It is a very flawed system. I hope we get a system in place that is far less flawed.

H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
7. My daughter lives in Europe.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:48 PM
1 hr ago

Her recent pregnancy, delivery, and months of aftercare (visits by two midwives and one nurse, three visits per week) cost $26. I will speculate that is a better system.

Corporations, by their non-human nature, focus on profit and growth. They do not have a conscience. Therefore, unlike in my daughter's case, they do not value human beings.

dalton99a

(84,663 posts)
9. The insurance industry's favorite targets are the weak, the old, the poor, the uneducated
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:59 PM
52 min ago

People who can't fight back, don't know how to fight back, or don't have anyone to help them

The CEOs know exactly what they are doing


H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
12. Right.
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 12:19 AM
31 min ago

I think that people who have been denied, or have relatives and friends who were, who while not being in favor of murder, do not have sympathy for that devil. And I'm not using that work in a religious sense. There is no "evil" outside of humanity. But as a "doer of evil."

H2O Man

(75,690 posts)
13. I saw coverage
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 12:21 AM
29 min ago

of young guys having a Luigi look-alike contest. I've heard the style of coat he wore has sold out. And that people are getting a Luigi tatoo. I don't think any of these people are dangerous. But the chances are that potential ones are watching.

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