This is an awkward thing to post

[canetoad]

Given the business of Luigi Mangione but I just want to point out that many of us are 60, 70 or older and we need to consider what the upcoming generations think of this issue.

Stating that it is wrong or right is not doing civil discourse a favour. We need to understand WHY so many people think Mangione is a folk hero. Do this, or be left behind.

We cannot influence politics from beyond the grave and unfortunately, that's where many of us will be within the next couple of decades. If you feel your idealism has failed - then ask why. But the answer must ultimately be an open one.....

Accept change whether you like it or not. Please don't accuse me of 'giving in' because I'm not. I'm being realistic. Love you all....

[dweller]

1. You mean the upcoming generations

That have been terrorized with the gun humper coalition from kindergarten through high school ?
I’m surprised more have not taken up the cause … after all it’s not like 2A is going away any day soon .

😐



✌🏻

[GenThePerservering]

2. What surprises me is that so man people think actions like this

are something new. They are not. The times, whatever times they may be, have often brought forth someone who may have done something heinous, but have expressed so strongly the frustrations and anger of so many that they become anti-heroes.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

4. There's a street

There's a street in Chicago named Cermak. Look up its history.

I agree with your post.

[Grins]

26. And an avenue named Touhy....

[Renew Deal]

27. And a broad way called Broadway

[stopdiggin]

10. quite right. and the reaction (and there always is one)

may or may not 'advance the cause' - such as it be - depending on the perspective it is viewed from (legal, social, ethical, political) - as well as how many years, or decades, down the road the viewing takes place.

[Irish_Dem]

3. I agree, most of us are still living in the world that used to be.

Not the one we currently live in.

Our old world apparently is no longer there.

Welcome to Brave New World.

[canetoad]

6. Rec

You get it

[Irish_Dem]

8. People are really struggling.

It is hard to wrap our heads around the new reality.

[GenThePerservering]

5. There is no 'old world'

there is no 'brave new world'. The briefest reading of history teaches us that.

[canetoad]

7. I'm not sure I understand you post

Beyond literary references. Wanna eleborate?

[GenThePerservering]

11. There's a delusion that somehow history turns a page

and suddenly everything is different. Somehow a 'new world' is created. A brief reading of history will show how events, reactions, etc. repeat down through history. Maybe some new tools, maybe some new words, but the same old human nature.

ETA: Heather Scott Richardson (Letters from an American) has great thoughts on how history keeps repeating.

[canetoad]

14. Back in my 20's

A learned man, a professor who had lived through the nazi occupation of Holland, used to challenge me on philosophical questions. He argued, "People do not change". I argued against this.

Several decades later I know he was correct. People do not change.

[electric_blue68]

29. I disagree. There Are people capable of changing. Maybe a minority, but they're there.

[rampartd]

9. why is mangione a folk herlo?

consider jesse james, bonnie and clyde, pretty boy floyd are the heroes of ballads

even this 34 count felon i adored by many

why do serial killers always get sacks of fan mail?

[3Hotdogs]

24. My folk heros --- Mark Rudd. Abby Hoffman. George Metesky. The Berrigan Brothers. John Brown.

Joe Hill. Nat Turner. Denmark Vessey--- and on and on.

[H2O Man]

25. Years ago,

I think in 2008, I did a DU interview with Mark Rudd. I was fortunate to do some work with Daniel & Phillip Berrigan in the 1980s. And I got high and laughed a lot with Abbie.

[haele]

12. I understand the folk hero appeal.

John Brown, Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Bonny and Clyde and John Dillinger were considered folk heroes also.
They stuck it to The System, suck it to The Man.

Not pretty, but with an increasing number of put up on people becoming aware of the culturally accepted Wealth and Political disparities in the world around them, the more angry they become.

It's something to be expected, like when petulant, confused kids or adults who are having problems with emotional maturity turning to readily available guns when they decide they've had enough of being dis-respected or taken advantage of.

Civility and Social Compacts cannot exist one way.

Haele

[Shell_Seas]

13. Maybe we should shift the conversation to "post-capitalism?"

[canetoad]

16. I've (only half jokingly) declared myself to be

The founding member of the post-consumerist society for years. It's a good way to explain my lack of inherited wealth. Post Capitalism is a pipe-dream. Post consumerism is a personal position anyone can adopt.

[usonian]

15. Goes way back to Robin Hood, maybe earlier. But my memory .......

I can't really see how young people are concerned about health insurance. Maybe their parents are!

And in a few years, society may be rocked by things like AI more than anything else. Assuming Orange Shitler gets the Benito Mussolini treatment.

But do note that we grew up in schools that were open. First, they built fences around them like prisons, and then they became killing fields. This is a gigantic change in life. Sure I remember fire drills, even the local elementary school burning down after hours because of one really troubled kid. And yes, lightning entered the window and zapped around the light fixtures once, but nothing like WWII style drills for incoming buzz bombs, or worse, massacre.

[Lars39]

17. You think young adults

haven’t already seen their parents or even themselves be crushed by ER, hospital, and doctor bills?

[usonian]

18. Good point. I honestly don't know.

[electric_blue68]

33. Too young for WWII drills, but how about like in NYC the monthly Nuclear Bonb Air raid drills. With the Sirens howling..

across the city! For X years!

If I think of it, I can "hear" those sirens! We luckily never did "duck & cover", what a joke that was.

[usonian]

35. We had sirens in MA/Boston area.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, things got really spooky. Don't remember if there were sirens.

Later moved to Sunnyvale, mighty close to The Blue Cube, which was the single satcom center, and target #1 for Russian missiles.

CA still has duck and cover for earthquakes. And now, for shooters. No joke.

[FirstLight]

19. Someone posted this JFK quote recently here on DU

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

[Remarks on the first anniversary of the Alliance for Progress, 13 March 1962]
John F. Kennedy

I think we have hit the tipping point.
Stagnant wages, millionaire class, etc.
I don't care what the job numbers say, I see my Gen Z kids barely scraping by and jobs are not as forthcoming as you think... even then, they cant afford to live...
One health issue causes devastation. Firing for being ill or unable to do the tasks without accommodations... asking for accommodations means you're lazy... It goes on and on.
When all you see of your future is a downward spiral, its hard to think of a good reason to play by the rules.
Especially since all the people who are "winning" don't do so.

I don't know about the kid being a 'folk hero ' and I get that he came from privilege as well...but hes an example of what happens when you lose hope...

[stopdiggin]

20. disagree that there is any deep sociological element (nor probably consequense) at play here.

There has always been a certain amount of undercurrent admiration for the outlaw - going clear back into mythological figures such as Robinhood. Bootleggers, Jesse James, pirates, all sharing a certain fascination, grandiosity and acclaim .. and on down to the dregs such as Ruby Ridge and the Bundys ..) Social media just serves to make these things seem more 'next door', immediate, and consequential. We've had 'movements' of all different stripes in this country (and others) - and only very rarely does this type of individual, or action, serve as any meaningful roll as either figurehead or catalyst for them.

Reading something momentous into this sad sack is probably a very large mistake. People are pissed off at insurance companies - corporate greed? Oh, really? Such a surprise! And, know what - they have been for a long, long time ....

[Drum]

21. I guess we're trending toward "laws be damned" by the looks of things.

Last edited Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:33 PM - Edit history (3)

Suddenly I’m glad I’m in my 60s, because I might not suffer as much despair ultimately as those in their 30s. Some of the most basic precepts that we thought would endure seem to be just worthless in opposition to fame and wealth and ease.

When we capitulate standards of decency, law, and civility, we’re doomed. The rest just seems to be a matter of timing. Democrats spinning out on tangents and attacking each other is EXACTLY how we got here, and it’s happened for some last number of elections. Enough already.

[Kid Berwyn]

22. We used to value every human life.

For a while, that meant everyone. I remember being brought up to respect others, no matter race, creed, or socioeconomic status.

Pablo Casals, the cellist whom JFK invited to perform at the White House, was pretty spot on what we need to do.

Pablo Casals: “In the confusion that afflicts the world today, I see a disrespect for the very values of life. Beauty is all about us, but how many are blind to it! They look at the wonder of this earth — and seem to see nothing. People move hectically but give little thought to where they are going…

“Each second we live in a new and unique moment of the universe, a moment that never was before and will never be again. And what do we teach our children in school? We teach them that two and two makes four, and that Paris is the capital of France. When will we also teach them what they are? We should say to each of them: Do you know what you are? You are a marvel. You are unique. In all of the world there is no other child exactly like you. In the millions of years that have passed there has never been another child like you. And look at your body — what a wonder it is! Your legs, your arms, your cunning fingers, the way you move! You may become a Shakespeare, a Michelangelo, a Beethoven. You have the capacity for anything. Yes, you are a marvel. And when you grow up, can you then harm another who is, like you, a marvel? You must cherish one another. You must work — we all must work — to make this world worthy of its children.”

Source: https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/03/10/pablo-casals-joys-and-sorrows-jfk/

Unfortunately, that story of loving one another and appreciating one another and a New Frontier was replaced by the twin mottos of a fascist Dixie cabal: might makes right and white is right. Thus today the great many fall victim to the very few with power and means to effect change. They like being boss and don’t care who they have to get out of their way to this day.

Wall Street, Washington and the GOP state capitals help keep a boot on the neck of the future generations by making them feel life is hopeless weakens their ability to see their options for choosing a better future. Rupert Murdoch and his Turd Reich News help keep the People in the dark and in despair also helps limit their ability to resist.

[HUAJIAO]

28. I had the great fortune to play two orchestra concerts

under the direction of Pablo Casals with the Memphis Symphony in, oh probably 1969. Walking slowly to the podium he reached out and took my arm and I helped him, along with his young wife, across the stage. He must have been in his 90s.

[canetoad]

30. Thank you

It makes me feel closer to him by reading your personal memory.

[electric_blue68]

34. A beautiful memory! Ty

[Minnie the Hoosier]

36. Where is JFK in that photo?

I see Jackie, but is JFK the one leaning over to his right?

[LogDog75]

23. Remember, nottoo long ago

conservatives were talking about using their Second Amendment Rights to get what they wanted? It was a threat to use guns to make changes to society. Well, now that some nut used his, according to conservatives, their Second Amendment Rights all of a sudden they are complaining about what happened.

Well what did they think was going to happen when they kept yelling about using their Second Amendment Rights? Eventually, it was going to happen.

[rubbersole]

32. Maybe Rittenhouse should complain...

1984 + 40 = tsf's 2nd.

[Jack Valentino]

31. 'The Next Luigi is watching'

That's my suggested message to all those capitalist pigs who put profits over the lives of people.


I presume that includes most Republicans elected to public office.

As Elizabeth Warren said--- in effect--
'there are limits to what the people will take'

[usonian]

37. I found some more tonight researching something else. FWIW ....

WHAT PEOPLE WERE PRAYING FOR


EXULTANT


And rather bothersome, this one. Verbatim. Check the link, not edited by me.