Hi. I'm an expert in modernizing legacy government software systems. This is profoundly stupid and will definitely fail

[demmiblue]

Waldo Jaquith
‪@waldo.net‬

Hi. I’m an expert in modernizing legacy government software systems. This is profoundly stupid and will definitely fail, and it’s just a question of whether our social security system fails along with it.

‪makena kelly‬ ‪@makenakelly.bsky.social‬·1h

SCOOP: DOGE wants to rebuild SSA's codebase in months, risking benefits and system collapse, sources tell me.

The plan is to migrate all systems off COBOL quickly which would likely require the use of generative AI.
www.wired.com/story/doge-r...

DOGE Plans to Rebuild SSA Codebase In Months, Risking Benefits and System Collapse
Social Security systems contain tens of millions of lines of code written in COBOL, an archaic programming language. Safely rewriting that code would take years—DOGE wants it done in months.
www.wired.com

March 28, 2025 at 10:54 AM

What is the problem this is solving? There’s no problem with COBOL. It’s an actively maintained language that’s designed to do exactly what it’s doing at SSA.

The reason government has a lot of mainframes running COBOL is because they're actually really good at doing their jobs. Sure, they're hard to modernize and that's part of why they persist, but mostly it's because they get the work done.

I cannot think of a single legitimate reason for DOGE to perform such a modernization, especially on such a time scale. A lot of my work is around helping agencies triage how to deal with old systems. If the old system works, *leave it alone*! Start with stuff that's broken!

My assumption is that this SSA play is a continuation of the Treasury play—create a technical chokepoint for the flow of money to allow individuals or groups to be punished extralegally. "We're just rewriting the system in Java" has got to be a fig leaf covering the real goal of fascism.

* Waldo Jaquith- Thought follower. Public servant. Male software developer. Alumnus of 18F, the Obama White House, Georgetown's Beeck Center, U.S. Digital Response, the Biden-Harris Transition Team, and the Biden administration. He/him. Charlottesville, VA, USA.

[MayReasonRule]

1. LMAO I Learned COBOL On A Vax 11-780 Back In The Mid 80's...

Last edited Fri Mar 28, 2025, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Here's what to expect...

[Ms. Toad]

14. Yup.

I learned it on a Vax-something, in the early 80s.

Not for the weak of heart it or ignorant.

[MayReasonRule]

16. The Assembly Language Set Of The Vax 11/780 Was A Magnficent Beast!

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-11780-UG-001_VAX-11_780_Hardware_Users_Guide_197902.pdf

I had a Commodore 64 with cassette tape digital storage and a modem to communicate off-campus with the mainframe.

[Ms. Toad]

18. I was the summer sys admin

For the high school where I taught BASIC on commodore 64s. When I started, they had one live terminal (I don't even know what it connected to) and three punch tape machines. So I had to grade most of the coding by hand until I convinced them to invest in C-64s and televisions for monitors.

But that summer I had permission to use the Vax for my COBOL course.

The next summer, they decided my male Co-teacher needed the income more for his growing family . . . So the sys-admin job went bye-bye.

[MurrayDelph]

21. I taught for Digital Equipment Corporation

(and their doing of the Educational Services division, Global Knowledge) for a little over 16 years. During that time, in addition to Sys admin courses, I taught programming in Fortran, BASIC, and C.
I was quite happy they never asked me to teach COBOL, which is learned in the early 70's on an IBM 360/91.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Ahh . . .

My first computer.

Find (not) memories of walking across campus carrying stacks of punched cards, hoping not to trip. Then waiting 24 hours only to discover I'd made punctuation error.

[MurrayDelph]

33. Me, too

My computer cards looked like this.:

[Ms. Toad]

42. Same shape -

But I don't remember any logo on ours. I think they were just generic. Pale beige/yellow, if I recall correctly. It was 5 decades ago . . .

[wackadoo wabbit]

45. We must have been at UCLA around the same time

I'd totally forgotten about that logo!

[Klondike Kat]

27. I don't remember what system was used to teach COBOL when I learned it

but my first job in I.T. included some COBOL programming on a Honeywell DPS-4. I think I could still do it if I needed to - it might take a bit to knock the rust off.

Anybody who thinks that they could re-write a system that large from scratch has got rocks in their head. Large systems are inherently more difficult to design and build than small system. I think it was pretty much a truism back in the day that any successful large system started as a successful small system and grew incrementally from there.

[MayReasonRule]

41. I Adored Computer Science... One Of My Favorite Books As A Sophomore Was An Early Tome On Complier Optimization.

Now that I've thought about it... I'm feelin' the need to hunt it up just to see how it overlays with systems in use today.

[defacto7]

2. Ooops! Sorry.

We didn't really mean to destroy the social security system. It's just one of those things, ya know. Oh well...

(sarc)

[lastlib]

20. "We had to destroy the system in order to 'save' it....."

Isn't that how it goes? They're not really trying to save the SSA system programming in any usable form. They want it burned to the ground so they can put it in private hands (their own).

SSA probably employs hundreds of computer experts who would now have to go through probably years of re-training on programs they already knew backward and forward. Meanwhile, when things don't work correctly, or new things need to be added, who would be able to fix it? The DOGE boys? The guy who has already worked for a criminal hackers ring? Tell me how that's gonna work.

This is MY livelihood they're playing these games with--mine and tens of millions of other peoples'. I would survive, one way or another, but millions won't.

[harumph]

3. Ok, is the writer (not implying the OP author) of the piece just naive?

HELLO? THE POINT IS TO BREAK IT. Cobal based systems are not as easily hackable either for a number of reasons that (may) be
known to Elon's script kiddies.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. Not as easily hackable because script kiddies don't know it, can't fathom it. . . . . . nt

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Exactly what I asked here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3428158

[Lonestarblue]

5. The only reason to do this is for Musk to get an enormous government contract to do the work.

And doing it on a rush schedule means it will be filled with errors resulting in some people not getting benefits. People who depend totally on benefits but do not receive them have the risk of dying because they cannot afford food or drug prescriptions. Republicans never consider the impact on real people, just how much money they can make.

[haele]

22. Eugenics. Social Security takes from Technology Development.

So - Disabled people can just die if they can't be "productive" on their own or their family can't afford the care for them.

Surviving poor children can just drop out of eighth grade and go to work. Who cares if they are smart or have an unique talent? Get to work, ya lazy brat.

There's too many of "those people" getting
"useless" college degrees trying to compete with the Real Americans as it is.


Old people who can't work or support themselves, who aren't "genetically pure" should just die already.
They're a waste of resources, especially since the Technical, Racial, and Religious Elite are trying to get rid of all those extra people in this country - and it's going to be a bit tight until the Robotics evolves enough to come online and do the necessary physical work.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

6. It's not stupid if your endgame is to crash the system.

[Girard442]

38. Exactly. They have zero ability to improve SSA.

They intend to burn it to the ground.

[lindysalsagal]

7. Deliberately breaking it so it must be discarded. Bull in a china shop.

[AmericaUnderSiege]

8. Can people in there save the code for later restoration? nt

[angrychair]

17. Yes...hopefully

So unless they actually delete the old code (can't imagine why they would) it will still be there.
That code runs on a completely different type of system so there is no cross over.

This effort would require its own hardware and software.

So, barring them doing something stupid, it should theoretically be possible to restore the old system.
Problem is it's not that simple. The complexities involved here are mind numbing. It's an system of code, tightly wound around old hardware. Once it's turned off, it may never come back up again the same way or at all

[dalton99a]

9. Elon wants to break it so he alone can fix it - for billions of dollars in fees and future contracts

[snot]

10. Talk about waste, fraud, & abuse...

.

[yardwork]

11. It's planned to fail.

Musk has an agenda and goal, and it's not about improving social security.

[SheltieLover]

34. Absolutely!

[Ms. Toad]

12. The tech babies don't know COBOL

Or the I intricate system of law-based algorithms it implements.

They are just sure there is massive fraud but they can't find it - and keep embarrassing themselves when they do stupid stuff like mistaking survivor about benefits as loans.

If they break it and and it stops paying enough legitimate beneficiaries they can rout the savings.

[Prairie Gates]

13. Honestly, how are they authorized to do this work?

Are here not TEN Republicans between the House and the Senate who will stand up and protect Social Security. It's completely unbelievable.

[angrychair]

19. This will fail

This is absolutely maddening. There is zero chance they know what the fuck they are doing and I promise fucking AI has no clue. They are about to irrevocably break Social Security and I cannot stress enough how bad that will be. It very likely could push our country to a very bad place

[JCMach1]

24. Messing up initially is part of the plan

Close offices, shut down phones and change the payment system. Make people report in person to fix, "issues".

Claim savings that are actually stolen funds from people unable to correct things.

[JCMach1]

25. All intentional

Close offices, shut down phones and change the payment system. Make people report in person to fix, "issues".

Claim savings that are actually stolen funds from people unable to correct things.

And FFS the in person stuff will not help feaud as now the in person stuff will result in have to examine Powers of Attorney. That will be the new scam on disabled elderly (not new, but number 1 with a bang).

[Irish_Dem]

26. Bank robbers pretending to fix a bank vault that is not broken.

[dutch777]

28. Looks like something to keep DOGE looking busy...or as noted in the article, something worse.

[Johnny2X2X]

29. This is Elon we're talking about

So the people who get their Social Security canceled will be chosen based on race. Bet on it.

[riversedge]

30. I know nothin about computer systems-other than I want them to work. Thanks to those who gave info above.

[Hekate]

31. Remember the Twitter takeover? I watched from afar, but it sure looked like deliberate vandalism to me.

I wouldn’t trust him to “fix” his kid’s tricycle.

[SheltieLover]

32. Kick

[kkmarie]

35. Nominee for SSA is CEO of Fiserv a payment services company

Frank Bisignano, the nominee to run the Social Security Administration, is CEO of an oligopoly for back-office banking services, buoyed by at least 40 acquisitions in the last 40 years. SSA could be his latest conquest.
prospect.org/health/2025-...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2025/03/25/who-is-frank-bisignano-democrats-grill-trumps-social-security-pick-at-confirmation-amid-doge-cuts-to-service/

He testified he's never heard of a plan to privatize social security.

[Xipe Totec]

36. This project will take off like a Space X rocket

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

37. If it ain't broke don't fix it

Never been more true than in this case.

[Jim__]

39. I absolutely agree. Profoundly stupid and will definitely fail.

I did consulting in the software industry. And the one thing you always needed when working in someone else's shop was someone from that shop to help you understand their files. We know DOGE didn't have that by the stupid mistakes they made when they first looked at SSA's files.

[Dan]

40. Yep, old timer COBOL programmer here from years ago...

I have been exposed to some of these hot-shot new coders with the newest computer languages rewriting old legacy systems.

If we are all lucky - they have a good team (business, data, application, implementation, parallel testing and validations (all levels)) working together. Whisper, whisper - they have to test the interfaces too, which they normally forget or ignore. Not all, but the ones that I have been exposed too, these hot shots seem to think that everything is just code, and the code generators that they use seem to omit lots of the business knowledge of the system.

So, questions to consider:
Since they are eliminating staff - who are the business experts that are assisting in the system validation and are they allowed to point out problems or are they just there to say 'yes, it was done' - check box.

How good is their test system environment (business group, data, migration, application and validation).

Data Migration from the existing data to a new database system (probably SQL). Converting that data really quickly without some good validation methodology means serious trouble in the future. Please to whomever deity we believe in - that they are providing for some data backup from the original data combined with the database system it was using.

Do they plan to run a parallel system when they implement the new replacement system (smart money says NO).

Now, if they also decide to move the data to another database system which I suspect that they have to do, how good and accurate on the data migration.

I am at this point laughing my ass off (because otherwise I will end up crying) - once they implement the new system and discover that they didn't do all that they should have done because of the need of speed, I am hoping that they have a backup plan in case of failure that maybe involves going back to the original host system. My guts say - NO, and then the lie that they can get the new system running, just needs more time and they will fix it on the fly.

At this point, just thinking about the many ways that a "quick replacement system" can fuck up, my stomach is acting up.

Seniors, people on Disability - the smart money says, put some money aside.

Smarter people than me - maybe can add some insights.

[Emrys]

43. Musk's whole "career" features episodes of radical recoding of systems, with unpredictable results

At his co-venture that started building his fortune, Zip2, coders brought on board faced sorting out the mess of the self-taught Musk's coding efforts:

“They took one look at Zip2’s code and began rewriting the vast majority of the software. Musk bristled at some of their changes, but the computer scientists needed just a fraction of the lines of code that Musk used to get their jobs done. They had a knack for dividing software projects into chunks that could be altered and refined whereas Musk fell into the classic self-taught coder trap of writing what developers call hairballs—big, monolithic hunks of code that could go berserk for mysterious reasons.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9356850-they-took-one-look-at-zip2-s-code-and-began-rewriting

Musk's counter to these efforts has been quoted by some fans as evidence of his "drive":

Elon Musk used to rewrite engineers' code who were working for him at Zip2 after they went home.

https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-used-to-rewrite-code-of-engineers-working-at-zip2-after-they-went-home-never-wanted-to-be-a-ceo-2438663-2023-09-21

It seems his tyro-level knowledge and inability to accept that he needed to improve it meant he didn't understand his engineers' coding so he changed it to comply with methods he thought he understood.

A little later, when a series of mergers saw Musk's X.com being integrated with what became PayPal, Max Levchin, who had written pretty much the entirety of PayPal's code using Unix, came into conflict with Musk, the new CEO, who wanted to migrate everything to Windows because he was more familiar with that platform's programming tools (or at least claimed to be). This was just one of the conflicts that led to Musk's ousting as CEO.

At Twitter, he continued his obsession with meddling and misplacing the blame for resulting problems:

Twitter needs a ‘complete rewrite’ after it broke again, Elon Musk says
Site’s code means that it is ‘brittle’, CEO says – but reports claim lack of staff may have made the problem worse
...
The outage on Monday was caused by a “bad configuration change” that “basically broke the Twitter API”, a staff member said, according to Platformer. Twitter is currently attempting to change how that API works, so that it will no longer allow users free access to tweets, for instance.

“We made an internal change that had some unintended consequences,” the company had explained in an update on its Twitter support account.

The outage quickly hit internal Twitter systems and other important services, as well as showing up as broken images and links for users.

Staff had previously been employed to evaluate the risks of such configuration changes. But they were among the employees that have been fired to leave Twitter with less than 25 per cent of the staff it had before Mr Musk took over.

But Mr Musk has continued to argue that the code running the site itself is at fault, and that it will need to be completely rewritten.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/twitter-down-elon-musk-explained-rewrite-b2296116.html

Around that time, Musk took to telling all and sundry that Twitter's "stack" was terminally faulty and the whole site would have to be recoded from scratch. A Twitter programmer challenged him on an open forum to describe Twitter's stack and what precisely was wrong with it, and he shamelessly waffled, revealing he was just spouting jargon he didn't understand.

SpaceX uses Python extensively for its operations. Google says that Python is Musk's "favourite" computer language. Hang on there:

The Australian co-creator of Dogecoin has described Elon Musk as a “grifter” who sells a vision that he pretends to understand while not even knowing how to run basic code.

Jackson Palmer is an Australian-born software developer who created Dogecoin, a meme-based cryptocurrency that soon became one of the world’s most valuable digital currencies. He stopped working on the cryptocurrency in 2015 and has since denounced the technology.

In a rare, wide-ranging interview with Crikey coinciding with the launch of his new podcasts about grifts, he spoke about Elon Musk, the cryptocurrency “winter” and the mainstreaming of rentier capitalism.

Palmer says he spoke with Musk over Twitter direct messages after he developed a script to automatically report cryptocurrency scams in a user’s replies: “Elon reached out to me to get hold of that script and it became apparent very quickly that he didn’t understand coding as well as he made out. He asked, “How do I run this Python script?”

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/05/30/dogecoin-jackson-palmer-elon-musk-cryptocurrency-bubble/

It looks like Musk is more concerned with trying to set up a new system he and his gang of tearaway code jockeys can understand (or Musk has more chance of bluffing successfully about) than getting them trained in COBOL (or, heaven forbid, hiring or rehiring some people who know what they're doing with it) so they can work with the existing system.

[vapor2]

44. So are we all f**ked??