Why are there so few black people in classical music?

[Jeebo]

This is something that has been bothering me a lot, for a long time. I just watched a video on YouTube of an orchestra in Berlin performing Mahler's second symphony. That symphony is one of my favorites, 80 minutes of heavenly bliss to me. That symphony requires a LOT of people, a huge orchestra and a huge choir. I didn't count them, but there must have been 140 or 150 people on that stage performing that wonderful music. Out of that many people, even in central Europe, you would think there would be at least a half dozen black people, wouldn't you? There were a few Asian faces and a few more that looked like they might have been Hispanic, but not one single black face. Not one. And I spent all of those 80 minutes trying to find them. I looked, really hard.

I watch a lot of classical music performances on YouTube and this happens everywhere. Almost never do I see a black person among the performers. Even huge ensembles like the one I just watched. They're all white people.

Is there some kind of racial discrimination going on here? I don't think so. Classical music people are intelligent people, cultured and educated and aware, and I am sure they are beyond that kind of stupidity. Is there some reason why black people don't like classical music? I'm trying really hard to be careful in the way that I pose that question, because it would be too easy to say something that somebody might interpret as racially insensitive or invoking racial stereotypes, but I am trying to identify the reasons why black people just don't have anything to do with classical music. Maybe this is a social or cultural issue that some master's or Ph.D. student in sociology could write a thesis or dissertation about.

In case you're wondering, I'm a 74-year-old white man. If I were the head man in a big city orchestra somewhere, or even a medium-sized city, I would launch a recruitment effort trying to recruit black people into my orchestra.

-- Ron

[Aristus]

1. I'm sorry to say that a lot of the orchestras in Europe are intensely conservative.

Even in the most open-minded, progressive, forward-thinking cities like Berlin, their orchestras are resistant to change. The Vienna Philharmonic was once conservative to the point of being reactionary, not even permitting women to join.

That has changed, thankfully. But the pace of change from the old ways is still very slow among the most venerated orchestras in Europe.

[Jeebo]

8. Somewhere on YouTube ...

... there is a video of Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in a performance of the Beethoven seventh symphony. Every single musician in that orchestra is an older white man. Not one single woman, not one single black person or Asian. That REALLY bothers me, so when I want to listen to Beethoven's seventh, I listen to one of the other performances. There are a couple of performances at the Amsterdam Concertgebouw, and I have been there, so I usually watch one of those.

-- Ron

[brush]

2. Propably because of non-interest.

[Jeebo]

5. Non-interest on whose part?

Are you saying that black people are not interested in classical music, or that orchestras are not interested in recruiting black musicians? In either case, that doesn't answer the question I was trying to pose, which is, WHY is that so? What is the reason for it? WHY are they almost universally not interested?

-- Ron

[RussellCattle]

3. I think that response that details the conservative nature of European ochestras is exactly right. Old orchestras with.

.....old endowments performing in ancient concert halls shouldn't surprise anyone if they resist change. I don't think you'll get in any trouble asking about black folk in orchestras, but you could try asking about white folk in jazz ensembles if you're brave.

[usonian]

4. Please listen to programs by Lara Downes on KUSC from 8pm to 12 pm (Pacific)

Lara features works by African American composers and performers, sometimes performed by herself.

Sunday evenings, there’s a new program at KUSC with Lara Downes, Classical Americana
https://www.kusc.org/radio/programs/sunday-nights-classical-americana/

You can get KUSC streaming on the web at https://kusc.org, or via their app.

I also recommend (off topic a bit) Concierto, with Frank Dominguez, at WDAV (https://wdav.org) or via their app.

Concierto is a weekly program of classical music presented in Spanish and in English. The program features music by Latin American and Spanish composers and musicians. With Concierto, WDAV extends a welcoming hand to the fastest growing ethnic group in the Carolinas, while also seeking to introduce new listeners to the pleasures of classical music.

AND DON’T FORGET!
As an opera lover, I am wildly impressed by the number of Black singers. The list is too long to give here. I am sure you have heard of many. Being a bass, how about Paul Robeson, others?

And short answer is NEGLECT. Music by black and women composers was just ignored. Now that it is being given greater exposure, we can enjoy these great, neglected works. Did you know that Scott Joplin wrote an opera “Treemonisha”?

You can even get the vocal score at IMSLP: (public domain)

https://imslp.org/wiki/Treemonisha_(Joplin,_Scott)

[Jeebo]

12. The St. Louis Opera Theatre did Treemonisha.

Recently, a year or two ago. I didn't go. I am now regretting that oversight. I go over there to two or three of their operas every year. Paul Robeson, as I recall, made some movies in the 1920s and 1930s, did he not? And there is also the famous story of Marian Anderson singing the national anthem in Washington D.C. at an inauguration but not being able to attend because of segregation. Thanks for the links, I will give that a listen Sunday evening.

-- Ron

[usonian]

15. I am not going to list the top 10, or 15 or 25 great black singers. There are so many.

Some of the greatest and most beautiful voices you ever heard. (Thanks to recordings, you can hear them again. )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African-American_women_opera_singers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African-American_male_opera_singers

Here’s a bio of the great Paul Robeson.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/remembering-paul-robeson-actor-sportsman-and-leader-180961834/

Remembering Paul Robeson, Actor, Sportsman and Leader
Among other things, Robeson transformed one of history’s most famous showtunes into a protest song

And yeah, I’m your average 74 year old white guy. (Well, not so average )

[Beartracks]

13. Wow. I was today years old when i learned...

... that Scott Joplin was African American. I had no idea.

==========

[Aristus]

17. I knew that at around age six, the first time I listened to the soundtrack to the film "The Sting".

It's a shame that he is still considered a ragtime composer. The term 'rag' refers to pieces that have a loose, improvisational feel to them, and were just meant as good-time honky-tonk music.

After "The Sting" re-introduced Joplin to the musical consciousness, music professors and critics started re-examining his pieces, and realized that, far from being a glorified saloon pianist, he was an absolutely brilliant composer, in the literal sense that his works are compositions, carefully thought out and arranged. Some of his works have a beauty and solemnity that Beethoven might have admired.

And sometime in the 1990's, Joplin was re-categorized as a classical composer.

I would recommend getting a good recording of his most popular and well-known pieces. They're astonishing.

[usonian]

18. My goodness, Scott Joplin, Eubie Blake and others dominated ragtime.

[Ocelot II]

6. Music lessons and instruments are expensive; anyone who wants to play

in a major symphony orchestra (or their parents) will have to invest a lot in that process. Black and other POC have been historically disadvantaged financially, and families might be unable to afford to pay for the instruction and the instruments they would need. They have to start young. If a kid isn't exposed to classical music early they won't be able to acquire the skill to play it, and they'd have hear it at home or in school. I took piano lessons from a Black teacher back in the '60s; he was mainly a jazz musician but he knew the classical repertoire well enough to teach it. I have no doubt that there has been discrimination in this field, just as in every other, but there are some spectacular successes - Wynton Marsalis and the Kanneh-Mason family, for example - and I'm sure there will be more.

[tetedur]

7. Check out Barbara Hendricks

I get chills every time I hear her sing "Laudate Dominum" de Mozart.

[Jeebo]

11. Thanks for sharing that, but ...

... I notice every other person in that orchestra and huge choir is white. Every single one of them. I think she's beautiful. She must be an opera star and I go to the opera at every opportunity. I saw Verdi's Aida one time at Het Musiktheatre in Amsterdam and because the title character is an Ethiopian princess, they had a black woman singing that role. I wonder if that could have been her?

-- Ron

[2naSalit]

9. During my time...

Ten years, in classical performance, I rarely saw a person of color in the chorale or the symphony, and I was right there in the crowd on stage. Sometimes I was the person of color and that's how it went.

In a social system that has been historically racist from its origin, it's hard to break into the realm if you're an "other".

[Lonestarblue]

10. I haven't paid a lot of attention to orchestras, though I think in the US they are mostly white with a few Asians.

Where I have noticed a number of black performers is in opera as lead singers. Before the holidays, I saw a performance of the Messiah and one of the four featured singers was black. At a recent Metropolitan Opera broadcast, a number of the choral singers were black, though none of the leads were. I suspect it’s tough for black singers/musicians to break into this genre.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. A lot of public schools have cut their music programs.

The ones that still have them don't even touch classical music. They don't teach sightreading. The kids don't sing.

The public schools that have bands are an improvement, but again, they don't encourage instrument careers or even amateur performances after graduation.

The kids who become musicians have supportive families who finance their extracurricular instrument lessons. They encourage them to try out for regional and state orchestras. Most fall out and become music teachers and really don't play their instruments after that.

Plus, "classical music" is seen as white culture and it feels antithetical to African-Americans.

[bahboo]

16. good question, and hopefully it will get turned around soon...

I was just at an LA Phil concert yesterday, and I think only the bass trombone and a percussionist were black. Many females and Asian, otherwise a pretty diverse orchestra as you would imagine.. Hopefully the youth orchestra movement that Dudamel has started, will eventually have an effect. I do think the cost of lessons and instruments, and just plain exposure to the classical canon are a reason.

[bif]

19. Check out the Detroit Symphony Orchestra

They do live broadcasts all the time. There are several black performers in our orchestra.

[bif]

20. P.S. Mahler's 2nd is one of my faves as well!

I was lucky to hear it live last year with the DSO. And I loved hearing it in "Maestro!"

[Jeebo]

21. I have attended four live performances of that symphony.

Twice at the St. Louis Symphony. I live a two-hour drive from St. Louis.

Once in Amsterdam at the Concertgebouw. It was the Netherlands Philharmonic that performed it, not the Royal Concertgebouw, but the Concertgebouw was the venue where it was being performed. I think the Royal Concertgebouw is the one that's a world-class orchestra, but I can't tell the difference.

And once in Chattanooga by their orchestra down there. They have a wonderful orchestra and a beautiful venue. As I recall, it was called the Tivoli. I was driving through there anyway at about that time, and I timed my trip so that I would be able to stop there for the Mahler Second.

I will go to some lengths to attend a live performance of that symphony.

And getting back to the topic of this thread, I don't remember noticing whether there were any black people in those orchestras or choirs.

-- Ron

[CBHagman]

22. There's so much going on here, and people have already mentioned some of the barriers...

...and I can honestly say that for many years the only Black artists I encountered in working in classical music sales were vocalists, save André Watts, the pianist, who was actually featured on Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood back in the day.

Now my local classical station sometimes plays recordings by the Kanneh-Masons (see link below).

http://www.kannehmasons.com/

Concert halls and recording studios and classical stations are starting to improve on their choices. I have been gratified to learn about Florence Price and hear her works on my local classical station and also at the Kennedy Center. Time was when the music stores where I worked had no sections for individual Black composers (William Grant Still and Scott Joplin were notable exceptions).

https://florenceprice.com