It seems like is the US is selling weapons to Israel, not just giving them for free as military aid

[LymphocyteLover]

Yet I keep hearing how the US is actively supplying Israel with weapons, like we're just giving them away without restrictions because (as so many on the left say) that Biden wants to enable Israel's genocide.

My question is-- is there a meaningful difference between selling and giving? (I think there is)
And do we know if there is any restriction on what the US is selling to Israel?

[claudette]

1. My answer would be

There is no difference. Either way the weapons are apparently being used to deliberately kill innocents. Actually profiting from the sale of these weapons is just as bad as if not worse than giving weapons for free. In my view

[Beastly Boy]

2. It is meaningful to those whose argument is that they don't want their taxes to go to foreign aid.

And, on the other hand, that selling weapons to Israel rather than Israel producing weapons themselves creates American jobs rather than jobs in Israel.

[Lonestarblue]

3. To me, even selling the weapons is wrong because Netanyahu's IDF uses them on innocent civilians.

Yes, in any war civilians die. But 75-89% of the people killed by the IDF are not Hamas fighters. They are mostly women and children. The IDF has failed to capture or kill the Hamas senior leaders, so all they are doing now is waging war on a few junior foot soldiers and civilians. The leaders are most likely in another country by now, having escaped through their tunnels. At this point, continuing the war is unlikely to gain Israel much more than the world’s disgust at needless killing.

[Doc Sportello]

4. Often the weapons are purchased with U.S. funds

The U.S. has given Israel $30B over the years, with requirements that much of it be used for purchase of military products. So, to draw a line: to claim that Israel is only using its own funds to buy military weapons from the U.S. is as wrong as it is to state that "many" on the left say Biden wants genocide. Both are factually wrong.

Most of the aid—approximately $3.3 billion a year—is provided as grants under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, funds that Israel must use to purchase U.S. military equipment and services. Israel has also historically been permitted to use a portion of its FMF aid to buy equipment from Israeli defense firms—a benefit not granted to other recipients of U.S. military aid—but this domestic procurement is to be phased out in the next few years. U.S. aid reportedly accounts for some 15 percent of Israel’s defense budget. Israel, like many other countries, also buys U.S. military products outside of the FMF program.

Additionally, $500 million a year is slated for Israeli and joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs, in which the two countries collaborate on the research, development, and production of these systems used by Israel, including the Iron Dome, David’s Sling, and Arrow II. Iron Dome was solely developed by Israel, but the United States has been a production partner since 2014. For instance, the U.S. military contractor Raytheon manufactures Tamir interceptor missiles for Israel’s Iron Dome at its facilities in Arizona.

https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

[LymphocyteLover]

7. OK thanks for the info but

why is it wrong to say this--- "many" on the left say Biden wants genocide"??

[Doc Sportello]

9. Not up to me to back up your bogus claim

It's become common on here to make this slur against those who criticize Israel's plocies in Gaza - without offering any facts or example.s The word many, according to the dictionary, means a large number or majority of people. So if you're talking about DU, that would mean dozens have written that, of which I haven't seen one instance. Can you provide instances of dozens? Of course if you're referring to elected officials it would refer to hundreds. Can you provide hundreds of examples of left-leaning officials who have make this claim. Not one, or two but hundreds. Examples?

Of course you don't respond to the factually wrong claim that Israel is helping the U.S. by buying weapons - when in fact it is being given these weapons through agreements to use U.S. funding to purchase them. Correct?

[LymphocyteLover]

10. What??? So to be clear,

you're claiming that people on the left are *not* saying that 'Biden supports Israel's genocide'??

Do you ever go to twitter? Because it's all over the place on that site. Also I have a lot of lefty friends on FB who say the same thing.

So what is your position then? Israel is committing genocide but Biden is just reluctantly going along with it?

[Doc Sportello]

12. "Many people say" and deflection is all you got?

I asked you to give examples of the "many" on the left you are talking about and you respond with claims of twitter and Facebook posts? Sheesh. Your claim implies that dozens of official and DU posters are doing this, which you provide ZERO proof of. Not one. And in another post you demand a poster who disagrees to post links to back up their statements. Can you at least be honest enough to admit the hypocrisy?

Again, it isn't up to me to prove you wrong, it's up to you to provide proof of your claims and you can't do it. So we get deflection since you can't back up your claim and a trumpian "many people say" on Facebook and twitter as if that's proof. My position is clear: some posters on here are regularly making baseless claims of antisemitism with the full intent of suppressing any criticism of Israel.

So what's your position? That it's ok to smear people who disagree with you and others on Israel? Because it happens here everyday and when asked to back it up, the same routine is followed: deflections filled with "what-aboutism", many people say, and more personal attacks. I guess the latter is coming next.

[LymphocyteLover]

13. Wow. First of all, I'm still not clear why what I said is a smear!

I didn't intend it as a smear, I just see is as a common sentiment. Saying many people on the left certainly doesn't imply people here at DU or Dem officials. Quite the opposite or I would have said "many Democrats".

And while it's something I've seen a lot online, you'll just have to take my word for it. It's not like I save tweets saying this and I'm not going to waste my time trying to search for a bunch of them to satisfy you.

But here's one I saw just today from Sarah Kendzior:

Link to tweet

?s=20




Lastly, I still don't understand what your position is!

You think a genocide is going on, right?

[LymphocyteLover]

14. "Of course you don't respond to the factually wrong claim that Israel is helping the U.S. by buying weapons ..."

"Of course you don't respond to the factually wrong claim that Israel is helping the U.S. by buying weapons - when in fact it is being given these weapons through agreements to use U.S. funding to purchase them. Correct?"

I said "thanks for the info" for your correction. Isn't that a response?

[Doc Sportello]

15. A non-response response

Like a non-apology apology.

[LymphocyteLover]

16. The problem is that i never made the specific claim that

"Israel is helping the U.S. by buying weapons - when in fact it is being given these weapons through agreements to use U.S. funding to purchase them."

Those are your words. I never said that.

So why would I apologize or anything else for that?

This is such a weird exchange.

[SarahD]

5. Probably not much difference.

I think we send them an invoice, but it may not get paid. My sources tell me we have done this since FDR's lend-lease program in WWII.

[LymphocyteLover]

6. thanks-- but what sources? Public or personal?

[SarahD]

8. Personal.

I know somebody who keeps track of military spending. They actually work for the military and have access to procurement information.

[LymphocyteLover]

11. thanks