so, can someone w access to irish records do a search for me?

[mopinko]

the irish american cultural center has a great library. i'm sure the answers to my questions are there somewhere. they do a pretty inexpensive consultation, and i emailed them yesterday about it. both my ancestry and myheritage accounts want money atm. i'm hoping someone here can find some facts for me.

so, i am trying to nail down if i am related to michael dwyer, the chief of wicklow.
my question is- my understanding is that most of the family left ireland after he was deported. he wanted to come here, but went to new south wales. i know there were sibs who went to oz.
i think my connection is to his brother peter. i think he had a son, john, who was my 3 or 4 times grandfather. their father was john, and there are johns all down the line in the dwyer branch.

so, my question is- did peter leave ireland? did he have a son or other sib who came to the us?
i believe micheal was exiled in 1803? he evaded arrest for 5 yrs after the 1798 uprising.

tia.

[Irish_Dem]

1. Wiki is showing Michael was exiled in 1806 to NSW.

I cannot find any records on Ancestry showing Peter immigrating or exiled to NSW.

I am also not finding a male son named John.

However it looks like the grandfather went by John Michael and they switched the name back and forth.

In the strict Irish naming tradition, Peter would have named his first male child after Peter's father.
And it is showing he named him Michael.

If you pm me your grandfather's name I have a better chance of tracking it down.

I don't have access to Irish Center records, but I do haven an international Ancestry subscription.

I have done quite a bit of genealogy and DNA research, it is better to start with your father or grandfather, two people you know for sure you are related to, and work on their family tree.
Rather than try to do it backwards by working down from the suspected historical relative.

If you give me Grandpa Dwyer's name, birth date, location via pm I will do a search for him. And see where it takes us.

[mopinko]

2. thanks. i have started from my parents generation.

one of my aunts in my da's side did a genealogy book in the 80's, so i have that. it goes back to the ones who came here. nothing farther back.
i have traced my mom's side here, mostly. they are the not that fertile branch of the family, lol.
i was surprised to find out that 2 gen of dwyers are buried about a mile from me.
only 2nd gen american, but 5th gen chgo irish.

i've also been studying music/voice. i spent about 6 mos in the irish music rabbit hole, and started running into this michael dwyer dude.
i found a couple of dna cousins in oz, and a couple had trees that went back far enough to date to that time, and i found dwyers in them. course i also found other family names, so..

anyway, i dont mind posting info here. here's a link to my tree on myheritage.
i dont vouch for the accuracy, and i need to sort through. there are at least 2 john dwyers and i'm not sure i have them in the right place. my tree is too big to play w til i pay.

https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-786418781/cahill

[Irish_Dem]

3. Irish genealogy records are notoriously bad.

The Irish were a subjugated people, not literate by English law, and many of the Catholic records were kept in secret. So most Irish Americans have no idea who their ancestors were, don't even know which Irish county they came from.

I am fortunate in that my grandparents were Irish immigrants to the US and I know where they were born and raised and have Irish cousins still living in the same village!

Have you done DNA testing on Ancestry? It is currently by far the best site to track down ancestors.
It has a huge and excellent data base and lots of matches with documented trees. Yes some of the trees are crap trees, but some are very well done. Some of the tree owners have gone to Ireland for their research, and some even are Irish living in Ireland. I have found a number of ancestors this way and found answers to my brick walls.

So you don't need to necessarily invent the wheel.

Yes most of us are going to have cousins in Australia, New Zealand, etc.
Quite a few impoverished Irish women deliberately broke the law with minor crimes to get sent to these locations. There was a bride shortage there and once the women landed they could have their pick of husbands and get a much better life than they had in Ireland. Of course men were exiled as well for crimes.

I will take a look at your tree and see what I can find out for you.

Oh I love Irish music.

[mopinko]

4. maybe i'll break down and do that.

i'm on mh cuz they let you upload. originally did 23/me. their tree function is rly good.
i found a cousin in ireland and trying to get her to do that one, cuz there are close relatives form both sides in that database.

[mopinko]

5. also,

i make my singing debut this sunday w an irish pickup band at the beach at the end of my street.

[Irish_Dem]

7. OMG that is so great.

What a great thing for you to do!

Good luck. What songs are you going to sing?

BTW Ancestry has the best data base and trees right now.
And they do a fantastic DNA breakdown on where your ancestors are from.
They have such a big data base they have fabulous norm groups.

So you would easily see if your people came from Wicklow or not.

[mopinko]

8. fell into it.

a rocker i know has been hanging w them to polish his chops.
i have a list of about 10, but 'no man's land', 'on the one road', 'galway girl' 'the parting glass'
and MY song, '4 green fields' are what i'm hoping they can play.
i can fake it though at least 50 songs, tho. and these guys need a singer. saw them at an irish pub, and i've never been in a quieter roomful of irishmen.

[Irish_Dem]

19. Tommy Makem singing 4 green fields makes me cry.

I very much prefer an organic, sentimental but straightforward version of a ballad like he sings it.

Do you sing it more like Makem or McCann?

Yep when a group of Irish men are in a bar and you can hear a pin drop something sure as hell is up.

[Irish_Dem]

6. So you are not a male line Dwyer?

So YDNA won't help you in this particular search.

[mopinko]

9. nope.

[Irish_Dem]

10. One of your relatives on Ancestry have you going back to Peter, brother of Michael.

You have a good paper trail to John O'Dwyer who came to the US from Tipperary Ireland.
But there is no paper to link him to Peter Dwyer from Wicklow.
We don't know how Peter made his way to Tipperary.

So if you are looking for an Irish document, you should look for the parents of

John O'Dwyer, born:

BIRTH 1805 • Thurles, County Tipperary, Ireland

[mopinko]

11. omg. thank you.

so close.

[Irish_Dem]

15. Well maybe.

Some of the trees on Ancestry are mostly wishful thinking especially when it comes to links to history figures.

I would be happier if we could link your known ancestor to Peter.
But yes, it is possible we are just one generation away from linking you to Peter

We need to see some documentation that your known ancestor John is the child of Peter.

And/or to see you on Ancestry DNA and get some DNA matches to known descendants of Michael.

Then it was be scientific fact back by a paper trail and DNA.

I do DNA adoption searches so I stick to science.

Also I am a bit puzzled by the surname of Michael Dwyer in Ireland but here in the US it is O'Dwyer.
Usually it is the other way around. The "O" is dropped here in the US.

And we don't know how Peter made his way to Tipperary from Wicklow.

I suppose given his brother's notoriety Peter could have gone on the lam and changed his name somewhat.

[mopinko]

16. the o has come and gone.

not used here at all. dont think michael ever used it.
just knowing i can do a test and know for sure is amazing.

[Irish_Dem]

20. I know that is odd about the surname.

Usually in the US the O is dropped altogether.

Well you might not answer your research question, but Ancestry DNA testing is going to be the best shot at it you have.

For example we know where Michael D was born and raised. If you have no matches whatsoever from that location, that tells us something. If you have tons of matches from Wicklow, that tells us something too.

If we can get a DNA match from a known Michael descendent in Australia or in Ireland, then it is a slam dunk.

It is just the scientific method, DNA science, genealogy, and detective work.
It is a really fun hobby.

[mopinko]

22. see if you can find jeannie dwyer krier.

[Irish_Dem]

25. Yes she is the daughter of your uncle Edmund? Your mother's brother.

Jeanie is your first cousin.

Do I have that right.

[mopinko]

12. i think that makes the johns 4 deep. lol

[Irish_Dem]

21. I think the tree on MH is off a generation, names are not in correct order.

The quick tree I did for you on Ancestry is James, John, John, maybe Peter.
But maybe you are a John so that would make three.

Irish naming tradition is strict, every child is named after a certainrelative with exact preciseness.
First male child after paternal grandfather.
Second male child after maternal grandfather.
Etc.

[Hekate]

33. I never knew that! I finally started leafing thru Mom's 4 genealogy books (all done old-school)...

My grandpa and my dad were Howard, my dad’s brother was a Robert. Mom had traced that line back to James in 1775 in Boston, but couldn’t get them “back across the water.” What surprised me was that the names James and Robert persisted — and persisted. Uncle Bobby was the last Robert, at least in our direct line.

[Irish_Dem]

34. The given names have to persist in the Irish naming tradition.

As I mentioned they had to name the kids after the grandparents, uncles and aunts.

This really helps with Irish genealogy. We can tell the grandparent names by what the kids are named and their birth order.

My brother is a first male and is named after paternal grandfather.
My father was a first male as well and so we knew what the name of his grandfather had to be.

Second male child is named after mother's father. So then you can look for that name when searching records.

[SharonClark]

48. The naming patterns are the same in Scotland, for men and women.

My family has many Duncans, Archibalds, James, Isabels, and Elizabeths in generations older than mine. Now, not so much.
When I was a kid, I had a great-aunt Isa, aunt Isabel, and cousin Isy.

[Irish_Dem]

49. Right. That is why there are nicknames.

Big uncle bill, little bill.
Billy Jo, William, etc.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know the Scots had the same naming traditions.

[mopinko]

13. can you see where john landed?

also, who is the ancestry member?

[Irish_Dem]

23. I will look through naturalization records to see if I can find his ship and arrival port.

The family member is "rickandcriss" with a family tree named Rheinhardt Family Tree.

[mopinko]

24. i know them.

somehow they decided w werent related, but we clearly are. he's from that side of the family.
he was in the service in in '23. buried up the road.

[mopinko]

14. i'm ridiculously verklempt here.

i had a huge row w some neighbors in 2020. long time friends who supported my farm.
but starting on may 25th, memorial day weekend, til july 4, they entertained their locked down selves by blowing things up night.and.day.
drove me nuts, made my hens not only stop laying but start tearing their feathers out. driving every one mad. cops dod nothing, alderman did nothing. worst part was people crying on my shoulder about it.
i went to war. i won in the end by convincing them i was a witch. i told them if they made me call on my grandmothers, they'd regret it cuz they liked to burn things.
not only ended that shit, the last 2 4ths have been quiet as well.

also finding my people in a beautiful cemetery less than a mile away, i have a place to go talk to them. i have started to feel that they are behind me.
but thinking this guy might be there too, just when the city is pushing me into yet another fight, well,, i just, i never.

[Irish_Dem]

26. That is frigging hilarious. I have to try that next time I get shit from someone.

Actually I think it is true about me anyway.

Our ancestors are with us, of course.

[mopinko]

31. i assume there's witches, just dont know who.

tho i think my mom's mom saw things. i do.
i happened to have bought myself several rings for my bday. meaningful stones, made by a mexicano who borrowed the money from weed guys. when he couldnt pay it back, and they were coming, he packed it up, and brought it here and sold it all to a friend.
very convincing props.

[Irish_Dem]

32. The Druid DNA seems to be quite strong.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

Yes props help.

[mopinko]

35. i've had practicing witches laugh at me for denying it.

and the whole battle for my urban farm had my telling people i was trapped in a disney movie so...
i quit arguing and leaned in.

[Irish_Dem]

36. Absolutely brilliant.

I cannot wait to try it myself.

Right why fight it.

Embrace it and go all Irish on people who push you too far.

[mopinko]

37. the s&s super is an irishman.

next time we talk, imma ask him how irish he is.

[Irish_Dem]

38. Ask if he knows what county in Ireland his people are from.

[mopinko]

39. i'm just gonna ask him if he thinks you can call on your ancestors.

[Irish_Dem]

40. Right how Irish is he really?

Guess you will find out.

[mopinko]

41. yup

i think the alderman might believe in ancestors, too.

[Irish_Dem]

42. I think if people do any genealogy they begin to feel their ancestors.

There was an interesting psych study some years back.

It found that older people who make family trees and study their family history, have much lower rates of stress and accept the aging process and death.

I think they feel their ancestors with them.

[mopinko]

43. my aunt did it back when it was a ton of work.

one of her kids went to ireland to find records for her.
i know she was very proud of it. she was a full time mom whose had grands by the time she started it, and ggrands by the time she was done.
i dont think everyone appreciated it, but a few of us hung on to our copies.

[Irish_Dem]

44. Oh my gosh right, that was a ton of work for sure.

And expensive.

Right, many people in the family don't appreciate it.
But maybe some will later on as they are retired and have more time.

[mopinko]

45. yeah, it's about 40 pages legal. she took it to that new fangled kinkos place.

think she printed about 80 copies. they were pretty well off, tho.

[Irish_Dem]

46. Yes very costly hobby back in those days.

Now most of it is all online.

[mopinko]

47. no idea how many docs she paid for.

[mopinko]

17. found him. died in chicago. 1894

served in the military in 23.
birth record says tiffinay county.
cant find a cert.
i had a family search page, but i couldnt get in. started a new one. several cites

[Irish_Dem]

28. Yes we are missing two needed birth certs or baps.

On both the Johns. Something seems a bit off here.

[Irish_Dem]

29. Dates are off.

If someone died in 1894 they did not serve in WWI?

[mopinko]

30. joined in '23

[mopinko]

18. i have a couple peeps on ancestry-

jennie dwyer krier is my mom's bro's daughter.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Yes she is your first cousin. I see her tree on ancestry.