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The_REAL_Ecumenist

(889 posts)
Sun Jun 9, 2024, 11:43 PM Jun 2024

Good evening, DU Fam, I have a question about ONE of the languages I'm learning that I can't figure out to

save my life. I am learning Portugeuse, ("FAIRLY" easy as I have a pretty good knowledge of Italian, Spanish & French.) but can someone, ANYONE tell me why if a sentence ends in a word that is spelled ending with an "r", that word if pronounced as if it ends in a "SH" sound? I don't get it. I'm learning to just go with the flow BUT I need to understand why this is.

I'll be forever grateful.... I understand Magyar, (Hungarian), Czech & Polski but as weird as some of the languages I've learned can be, ( NAVAJO is a TRIP, BTW), I absolutly need to know why this is the case. Is it similar to the Spanish that's spoken in Andalusia with a lisp, supposedly because centuries ago, there was a ruler with a HORRIFICALLY rough lisp or is it just because?

5 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Good evening, DU Fam, I have a question about ONE of the languages I'm learning that I can't figure out to (Original Post) The_REAL_Ecumenist Jun 2024 OP
I'll take a stab at it... 2naSalit Jun 2024 #1
I am learning Portuguese too... maptap22 Jun 2024 #2
Can you link to a Youtube video that exemplifies this? Foolacious Jun 2024 #3
Interesting question, but I can't help here. Portuguese is one of two western Romance laguages I DON'T speak DFW Jun 2024 #4
Wiki actually answers that. Igel Jul 2024 #5

2naSalit

(93,115 posts)
1. I'll take a stab at it...
Mon Jun 10, 2024, 12:37 AM
Jun 2024

I learned a little Portuguese to learn the lyrics to a song that I like. I know some French and some Spanish and I concluded that Portuguese is a combination of French and Spanish. There seems to be a bit of a consonant shift remnant in the feature you mentioned.

A consonant shift that took place in Europe included the replacement, of sorts, of the "r" with "s" and the way "t" is pronounced, this may be a remnant stuck in the middle of a blended language. That's the simplest way to put it, just a thought.

maptap22

(152 posts)
2. I am learning Portuguese too...
Mon Jun 10, 2024, 05:33 AM
Jun 2024

Traveling there in the fall. I know most people speak English but it is fun learning a new language (and good for my old brain). I do well while I am in the language program and reading it but I still cannot understand it when I hear it spoken - they speak very quickly. I keep plugging away though. At least I will be able to say a few phrases. I have also tried watching Portuguese movies with subtitles for practice.

But I do not know the answer to your question.

Bom Dia!

Foolacious

(517 posts)
3. Can you link to a Youtube video that exemplifies this?
Mon Jun 10, 2024, 01:57 PM
Jun 2024

I studied European Portuguese many years ago and did not hear this. I did "r" -- especially final "r" pronounced quite uvularly, as in French.

DFW

(56,741 posts)
4. Interesting question, but I can't help here. Portuguese is one of two western Romance laguages I DON'T speak
Tue Jun 11, 2024, 09:44 PM
Jun 2024

I was just down there last month, too. The few words of Portuguese I do know, I learned from Brazilians, which people in Portugal pick up on immediately. That is the reverse from my Spanish, which I learned in Spain, and Latin Americans pick up on that instantly as well. But i don't know enough Portuguese to help with the intricacies. I know French, Spanish, Catalan and Italian, so I understand far more more Portuguese than I speak. I don't speak Romansch, either, and I'm pretty much lost with Romanian, which evolved in a bubble away from the western Romance languages. Romanian has little Russian and Turkish incursions that the others don't have.

I heard Navajo is another galaxy altogether, linguistically, as are all languages native to the Western Hemisphere, but if you know Magyarul, you've already been to a galaxy far, far away, nem igaz? Europe has its exotics tucked away here and there, such as Suomea (Finnish) and Euskera (Basque).

Igel

(36,187 posts)
5. Wiki actually answers that.
Tue Jul 23, 2024, 05:05 PM
Jul 2024

Which option works for your variety of Portuguese depends on which variety you're talking about.

The consonant hereafter denoted as /ʁ/ has a variety of realizations depending on dialect. In Europe, it is typically a voiced uvular fricative [ʁ]. There is also a realization as a voiceless uvular fricative [χ], and the original pronunciation as an alveolar trill [r] also remains very common in various dialects.[11] A common realization of the word-initial /ʁ/ in the Lisbon accent is a voiced uvular fricative trill [ʀ̝].[12] In Brazil, /ʁ/ can be velar, uvular, or glottal and may be voiceless unless between voiced sounds;[13] it is usually pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative [x], a voiceless glottal fricative [h] or voiceless uvular fricative [χ]. See also Guttural R in Portuguese. All those variants are transcribed with ⟨ʁ⟩ in this article.


That's written in "linguistics" with a heavy dose of jargon. Let's paraphrase.

What you think of as "r" is pronounced differently by dialect. In Europe, it's pronounced close enough to French "r" : rouge, guitariste, guitare . (Not like the "r" in "decider".) ("The consonant hereafter denoted as /ʁ/ has a variety of realizations depending on dialect. In Europe, it is typically a voiced uvular fricative [ʁ].&quot

It may be pronounced like the "ch" in German "macht" or pretentious American pronunciations of "Bach", but it was originally pronounced like the "rr" in Spanish or the "r" in Italian, and that's not uncommon in some regions. (There is also a realization as a voiceless uvular fricative [χ], and the original pronunciation as an alveolar trill [r] also remains very common in various dialects.)

In Lisbon, it's common to pronounce "r" as the French "r" (same examples as before). (A common realization of the word-initial /ʁ/ in the Lisbon accent is a voiced uvular fricative trill [ʀ̝])

In Brazil, all bets are off. (I'm guessing that's both by region and socioeconomic status). In Brazil, "r" can be like a backed can be various sounds I can't always easily place in languages we might both have knowledge of. It might show up as something in-between the "s" in "leisure" and a French "r"; as a French "r" as described above; or "glottal" (which could mean various things and guessing it's like a Spanish "g" between in fast speech between vowels--the "g" in "agua" in low SES or fast informal speech is very much not an English "g&quot . Now, that holds between vowels (and probably between /d/, /g/, /z/, /b/ in any combination, but that's a detail I infer). If the "r" is in some other place--at the start of words or at the end of a word at the end of a sentence then "r" can show up as Spanish "j", an English "h" or a German "ch" (as in "macht, again). I think this is unlikely inside a sentence where there's a vowel ending a word and immediately before "r". But Wiki writes them all with the symbol ⟨ʁ⟩. (In Brazil, /ʁ/ can be velar, uvular, or glottal and may be voiceless unless between voiced sounds;[13] it is usually pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative [x], a voiceless glottal fricative [h] or voiceless uvular fricative [χ]. See also Guttural R in Portuguese. All those variants are transcribed with ⟨ʁ⟩ in this article.)

Hope it helps. I'd actually meant to look this up for a while and never got around to it.
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