Does anyone else here think that class divides among whites are more salient...

[YoungDemCA]

...than class divides among black people?

Seems to me that this is the case. I think this has to do with the fact that black people have a much greater sense of collective identity and social cohesion as a group, and that is something that is rooted in a racial solidarity that exists because of the racism and shared oppression that black folk experience in the US. People have to watch out for each other when they are all subject to the same threats from the dominant culture.

Of course, there are plenty of disagreements and conflicts within the black community. But there is far more solidarity among black people than among white people in America. I personally view that solidarity as admirable.

[tonyt53]

1. Maybe to an extent, but having first hand experience, I'd say income has more of an effect

The poor whites stick together very well too. Poor whites and blacks appear to have little racial division when they live around each other. I was raised dirt poor.

[JustAnotherGen]

4. So your family wasn't family

Regardless of where you fell on the economic ladder?

[tonyt53]

5. Say what? Where'd you get that. We had a support network of people just like us - poor.

Most were white, but about 1/4 were black. Nobody looked at the color of the other person before helping out.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. See my response down below

It's not unusual for Sunday dinner in my family to include the wealthy and the poor. We aren't one step on the economic ladder.

Also - I *think* we are more likely due to history in America - to not throw people away.

We have some elderly Aunts who we make sure they have what they need. If someone has a baby as a teenager - we pull together. If someone is having a hard time financially- we pull together.

Black folks tend to not 'reach out'. Pride is important. So I know in my family I just FORCE the help.

We are tail end GM's with the vast majority spread out through Talladega to Birmingham. All of us raised in NY and PA and Michigan - with the exception of a cousin in Detroit and her Mom - are either in NJ/NYC, AL, GA, or Houston. We don't say -

You are poor so you aren't a member of the family and we don't look out for you.


ETA - the wealthy, rich and affluent are probably far more apart than you imagine (Race wise). When I look at my circle of friends with my husband - we are pretty diverse with the majority of whites (couples and or singles) either being Jewish or European Immigrants. We have very few WASPS (maybe one couple) in our circle - and they are Liberals.

[swhisper1]

2. oh yes

[JustAnotherGen]

3. Yep - I think I posted about this previously

I don't think they realize the family ties we hold.

I don't think the concept of at Sunday dinner you can have the wealthiest of the wealthy and the poorest of the poor.

We don't throw family away.

We also tend to not have the political arguments that people are always posting about at DU around the holidays. We are overwhelmingly Democratic. So that right there -

Yep. Class differences don't matter. We don't have to deal with the auto dealer Republican Brother in Law at Thanksgiving.

[elljay]

7. Because "White people" is not an ethnic group

whereas, at least in the U.S. "black people" is. There is not necessarily any cultural similarity, other than to some degree skin color, among various Caucasian groups. It has become convenient, based on America's racially-charged culture, and certainly from the perspective of African Americans, to differentiate people by skin color but it really is an imperfect classification. Yes, it is clear that people with white skin are treated differently in society than people with black skin, but the fact that I share not getting arrested while walking down the street with a white farmer living in small town Arkansas doesn't in any way create some mutual identity. You need to look at ethnicity (people from Scandinavian backgrounds actually do have quite a different culture than Bulgarians), religion (pentecostal vs Russian Orthodox) environment (urban vs. rural), and definitely class and education. You will find much more cohesion if you look within the individual ethnic groups. For example, my Jewish people do stand together, have cultural cohesion, have a collective identity rooted in our continuing shared oppression by Christians and Muslims, even between the liberal secular/less-religious Jews who predominantly vote Democratic and and minority of religious Jews who tend to be much more socially conservative and therefore trend Republican. And, we happen to be multiracial and multiethnic at the same time. Southern White Protestants, who are the Republican base share common beliefs and culture and identify as a community. Southern Protestants and Jews lumped together as a single group - no way.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

9. When the economy goes sour, black people feel it more and therefore there may be a collective

impact which may bring about more collective empathy, perhaps solidarity. I feel that the white population has trouble when faced with economic arrears because perhaps for the middle class and higher income classes, they don't know what it's like to struggle and thus their anxiety affects them in different ways. Plus, there's this phenomenon of internalized self entitlement for many of them who are in the middle and upper classes--this entitlement leading them to believe that someone else is responsible for their plight. For instance, it's the "lazy blacks" receiving welfare (or benefitting from subprime loans or the CRA); or, it's the immigrants coming to this country and taking all the jobs from qualified whites. I notice that when some white people face economic uncertainty, they are least likely to blame themselves for their own circumstance; they are more likely to blame others. That survey that demonstrated that whites believe that "reverse racism" is more of a problem than racism directed at blacks and other minorities, is telling in itself and serves as a prime examples. Other surveys that demonstrate how whites are less empathetic when it comes to police brutality--often siding with law enforcement and supporting harsh sentencing, that kind of them. All of these are just a few examples.

Note that the black middle class is much more tenuous and less stable than the white middle class. The inability to generate intergenerational wealth for blacks has a more greater impact on the black community, so when the shit hits the fan and the economy goes south, many blacks--even those in the middle- and upper-middle classes--tend to get hit much harder.

[Number23]

10. Yep. I do. And for alot of the reasons that you already noted.

[JI7]

11. this is true of all minority groups

Although you can see it more clearly in black and hispanics since they have larger population.

I think differences among minorities are usually on social matters . Sometimes due to religion .

[rusty quoin]

12. All I can say is when white people get into a room, or neighborhood, or county,

It has made me uncomfortable most of the time, and I am white. That said, I now live in a neighborhood and local shops and markets which are mixed. Everyone is polite and nice.

The problem always comes with those wishing to separate. Even saying what I just said sounds too simplistic to me. But where I live, it is nice.

Our history is complex. I would like to say something profound, but I just feel most comfortable where I am.

After all most white people voted for Romney. I am embarrassed by that. Obama is smarter and has more class than anyone. He was the most controlled, had the best family, the best and smartest wife, who did everything to make kids better...and the kids loved them both..the world loves them both. Well I'll stop there.

I think black people in America have more political common sense than white people. The rest of the world sees it too.

[JI7]

13. i think it's different life experience but white is seen as the norm. not just conservatives

but even those on the left as we have seen during this election cycle (and actually through obama's presidency).

many don't even realize it. but the fact they are so quick to correct black people who try to tell their side instead of listening and realizing some people have it different says a lot.

as you say it sounds too simple by itself but if one is willing to listen over time they might start to get it.

[rusty quoin]

15. Yeah, that's the thing.

Why do white people who don't know the experiences of black people need to educate them, rather than listen.

It cannot be true because it blows my white world understanding of how things are.

They just cannot LISTEN!

I think Bill O'REILLY is the best example of it. He went to dinner in Harlem. He was surprised that black people acted like normal human beings, and learned nothing from the experience. He's back to his white guy ignorance. He cannot be reasoned with. I don't know why these white guys are like they are, as much as I cannot convince them otherwise.

I only know that there is something inside of them that had made up their minds at an early age, and evidence will never change it.

[bettyellen]

16. Growing up in NYC it's always been the opposite. I remember visiting NJ or Wisconsin and feeling

Very out of place and uncomfortable how segregated it was, and it did not seem they realized it at all.

[rusty quoin]

18. White Privilege

In the early 80s in the Air Force a black guy I worked with explained what it was like to travel in America. Of course I was aware of racism, but it put me into his mind to how much he had to watch out for.

For me, it was to watch out and avoid driving into places like Harlem. For him it was watching out for too many reverse Harlems. I could drive almost anywhere, but he had to plan his route more, and each time he pulled off the main road, had to be extra careful, using his wits like he was in a war zone, or a third world country.

It has got better, but the resurgence of racism post Obama scares me. I hope we can get beyond the Trump crowd.

[bettyellen]

21. You nailed it. I think it'll be strange seeing sexism's big resurgence with HRC

It's gotta get ugly I think, before it gets better. I am hoping that what we are seeing is the last gasps of racism, it's death throes. I'm hopeful for once.

[uponit7771]

20. +1

[kwassa]

14. In many black families, getting into the middle class is recent history ...

and in the extended family are many members who haven't yet made that leap, including some that might be quite poor. They are still family. It is more common for white families to be multi-generational and broadly middle class, for obvious reasons of racial history.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. Excellent post Kwassa n/t

[Chitown Kev]

17. Historically until very recently

the black doctor/lawyer lived next door or even down the street from the factory worker or even the numbers runner and all of them lived across the street from the pastor...I don't think that was ever true of white people (and even within families, the wealthier one is helping the one who is struggling to get by very often).

I don't think that "whites" ever really had that type of social cohesion (the Irish and Italians did before they became "white&quot

I do think that class differences among black people are more pronounced than they used to be.

[ismnotwasm]

22. Absolutely

I also think that cohesion amougst black people is envied, and possible a part of what causes the massive cultural appropriation-- consciously or subconsciously