Religion
Related: About this forumPhilosophical idea. Need opinion.
Assumptions:
1. God is omnipotent and can do whatever he wants.
2. God is omniscient and knows everything for fact without ambiguities.
3. Belief is trust in a divine entity or concept that a claim is true/false.
Can God have a belief?
No, he can't. God does not trust or believe that something is true/false. He knows for fact that it is either true or false because he is omniscient.
If God cannot have belief, he is not omnipotent.
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tymorial
(3,433 posts)I would add that the only way to be omniscient is to have no belief. One simply cannt have belief if they are already aware of truth. I do not believe in rain, I know rain exists because I have observed rain.
If God is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants, including having belief. But as he is omniscient, he cannot have belief. How can he possibly be omnipotent if he cannot have a belief?
You've independently verified a better known example: "Can God make a rock so heavy that God can't move it"? If he can, he is not omnipotent. If he can't, same thing again
IndianaDave
(630 posts)It's not that he cannot believe. It's that belief is irrelevant to His nature, and the lack of belief does nothing to diminish His omnipotence. This is a false argument.
It's like asking if God can build a wall so high that He cannot jump over it. Since God is spirit, He neither needs to jump over walls nor to test His wall-building ability.
These arguments, in essence, are silly because they each set up a completely imaginary obstacle which need never exist in reality. These are mind games and not serious philosophical questions.
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)2. If he can believe, give an example what he can believe.
3. You do realize that "jumping over walls" and "lifting an infinitely heavy rock" are just metaphors for exploring the concept of omnipotence?
4. If course this obstacle exists in reality. "Belief" as a concept does exist.
IndianaDave
(630 posts)Omniscience precludes the need for belief.
Belief exists in reality - it is a demonstrable quality of created beings. God is not a created being.
Your reasoning appears to be circular, and you can draw your own conclusions about knowledge and belief.
Best wishes - Enjoy your quest for truth.
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)Created beings have a name. Does that mean God has no name?
Created beings know love and wrath. Does that mean God does not know love and wrath?
Created beings strive for order, justice, morals. Does that mean that God does strive for chaos, injustice and nihilism?
LuvNewcastle
(17,037 posts)If that's true, then God is always moving because our universe is expanding. What is God/ the universe expanding into? It seems to me that the hardest thing for God to do would be creating space out of nothingness. To build a wall that he couldn't jump over, he would first need a place to put the wall. What is nothingness? Does God have limits? Is infinity real, or is it a human construct invented to keep us from asking more questions?
Mariana
(15,174 posts)In that case, even though it knows what is true, it may refuse to accept reality.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)All the tantrums, and warring with other gods, that don't actually exist because he is the one true god.
Mariana
(15,174 posts)that if a proposed god is supposed to be omniscient, that it must therefore also be (pick all that apply) good, wise, sane, just, loving, etc. etc. But there's no reason to believe any of those attributes are related to omniscience.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)They say good is all that, we just cannot understand his reasoning for doing things that hurt us, just to trust in him and have faith that all the pain and suffering he is inflicting is out of love.
Which is what an abusive parent would say.
zipplewrath
(16,692 posts)It's the "can god make a rock so big that he can't move it" question.
Have fun working that one. Then you can move on to even more substantive questions like "how many fairies can rest on the head of a pin".
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)Mine is omnipotence vs omniscience.
edhopper
(34,998 posts)the final conclusion. What does belief have to do with omnipotence?
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)If God is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants, including having belief. But he cannot have belief because he is omniscient. If he cannot have belief, then he is not omnipotent.
But there are other, much bigger obstacles for a omnipotent/omniscient God.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)Belief arises from experiences. It is what man uses to replace knowledge when knowledge is lacking. We use it as a crutch to replace knowledge.
Failure to be able to "create belief" would be proof of lack of omnipotence if belief were something that is created, but such is not the case.
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)I'm not talking about believing something. "I believe that it will rain, because it always rains in these situations."
I'm talking about believing in something. "I believe in God, the holy trinity, souls, heaven and hell."
We believe in something not because we know from empirical experience, but because we place our trust in some divine authority who claims that this is true.
As God is omniscient, he knows for fact. He doesn't place his trust in somebody else's claim. He knows for fact.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)"I believe in" vs "I believe" is hair splitting. The "in" is a filler word.
One does not "believe that it will rain, because it always rains in these situations." One "thinks that it will rain" because one is, in that case, using logic to reach a deduction.
You're trying to differentiate between thinking and believing by adding "in" to the phrase.
You are engaging is meaningless and useless sophistry. As a friend of mine said, "If you could understand God you would be God."
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)If all you wanted is confirmation of your wisdom you should have said so.
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)Believing something and believing in something are two different things.
We believe something because we lack information, but this is our best-possible guess based on factual experience and statistics.
We believe in something because we trust some figure or concept of authority. We don't believe in a certain precisely defined God because our best-possible statistical guess is that this certain precisely defined God is the most likely answer. We believe in this very special God who is unlike all the other gods because we accept its authority.
There are no statistics in religious belief, there is no guess-work in religious belief. Believing something and believing in something are two different things.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)Belief is the acceptance as truth of something that has been told to you without you knowing as fact that it is true. If all things are known to you then the term "belief" is simply irrelevant. It does not exist.
It's not that God cannot do it, it's that for God the term does not exist.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)DetlefK
(16,479 posts)"Belief" as a general concept exists, whether God can have it or not.
Ponder this: What could God possibly believe in without compromising his omniscience?
Major Nikon
(36,911 posts)Love is blind.
Therefore Stevie Wonder is god.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But the Creator also knows that humans are not perfect.
Mariana
(15,174 posts)Yet, somehow, you understand it well enough that you know what it believes and thinks.
MineralMan
(147,853 posts)it can have any characteristics he can imagine.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Checkmate, atheists.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)As is understood.
DetlefK
(16,479 posts)
rogerashton
(3,943 posts)Modern philosophy (usually) defines knowledge as justified true belief. Since God is omniscient, whatever he believes is justified and therefore known. Correct conclusion is that for God, belief and knowledge cannot be distinguished. Now, what you seem to mean is that God could not have beliefs based only on faith, without other justification; but faith does not imply a lack of justification based on evidence -- once again, in the case of an omniscient being, I don't think faith can be distinguished from knowledge and belief. Finally, you could say that God cannot believe anything that is false, but that does not conflict with omnipotence as you define it.
