Irony: Sunnyvale man who ran into Muslims was on way to Bible study.

[MineralMan]

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2019, 09:47 AM - Edit history (1)

Is religion beneficial to society? That depends on which religion dominates that society and the people who follow it. Religion can lead to good actions or horrendous actions, as everyone knows.

So, the man in Sunnyvale, CA, who sent his car careening into people he thought were Muslims, was on his way to his Bible Study class. He specifically targeted Muslims because they were, well, Muslims, and not Christians like himself.

Religion is indifferent in its influence on society. It is neither a force for good, nor a force for evil. It is simply a reflection of those who worship it. That's the irony of religion. Religion doesn't care, one way or another. People do things, not religions.

Which leads me to wonder: What is the value of religion to society?

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-isiah-peoples-sunnyvale-crash-crowd-muslim-20190426-story.html

[Harker]

1. Maybe better for some people than for people generally.

By that I mean that many have bettered themselves through introspection and practice, but that the certainty many have of adhering to the 'one true religion', and the resultant hatred of others, has led to incalculable misery and destruction.

Just my take.

[MineralMan]

3. Introspection does not require religion.

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2019, 10:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Not in any way. Nor does hatred, really. I think that religion is essentially neutral in both areas, generally. Religion offers support for all human emotions and endeavors, good or bad. It supports slavery and kindness. It supports war and peace. It's very convenient for humans, since whatever they choose to do can be supported by the religions they create.

Human cultures have created religions that support their cultures. Religions are useful in that way, but are not forces for good or evil. They are merely designed to support human behavior, either way.

[Voltaire2]

2. He had faith he was doing what his gods

wanted.

[MineralMan]

4. One can find support for almost any human behavior

in almost any religion. Religions are neutral. Humans do as they please and seek support, which can almost always be found in the doctrines and scriptures of whatever religion they follow. That's because humans have created their religions to match their natures.

[Major Nikon]

9. You are obviously confused

Some atheist somewhere sometime once ran over some people which proves religion had absolutely nothing to do with this.

[Girard442]

5. Charles Krauthammer said that religion is needed to drive people to conform to the social contract.

The idea that "you know, if everybody did that, society would fall apart" isn't enough of a motivator. They need "you know, if you do that, you'll burn in Hell."

I call my own point of view The Modified Krauthammer: religion isn't necessarily anything I'd personally want for the world, but since it's inevitable, better to try to push religions away from destructive beliefs and toward constructive, or at least benign ones.

[MineralMan]

6. Well, it's certainly useful in that regard.

On the other hand, consider China, which has never really relied on religion as a foundational basis for society. One of the oldest cultures on the planet, China has pretty much eschewed theistic religion throughout its history.

Of course, someone will be along shortly to explain that China suppresses religion within its borders. That might actually be true. Why mess with what has worked for thousands of years in that culture?

None of that, of course, is to say that China is an ideal culture. It's made up of humans, so it is capable of both good and bad behavior, like all cultures. It just does it without theistic religion.

[marylandblue]

16. China definitely had religion and gods as an important part of their culture

But it doesn't fit neatly into our Western ideas about religion which assumes Western European Christianity is the archetypal religion and and all other religions are compared to it.

It occurs even here on DU. In Christianity, "belief" is a central focus, so we talk about belief all the time. We rarely talk about religions as sets of practices, stories and traditions. When we do, people here seem to want to shoehorn it back into the belief framework so that they can call the beliefs bullshit. That's easier than understanding why so many people find meaning in ancient rituals and stories.

[Mariana]

7. They need, "You know, if you do that, you'll burn in Hell."

That is not the teaching of most flavors of Christianity. Most of them teach that everyone is a sinner, and so everyone deserves to burn in Hell for eternity. Faith in Christ is what gets you your ticket to Heaven. Behavior has nothing to do with it.

[Major Nikon]

10. That's why John 3:16 is their favorite verse

Ironically if any of Isaiah Peoples' victims were actually Muslim and die they will go to hell while he goes to heaven.

[Girard442]

15. Ah yes, the doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer.

The escape clause that keeps the doctrine from being totally absurd is that if you do horrible things, then you never really believed and thus are going to Hell. If Isaiah Peoples had had a "born again" experience before his crime, Evangelicals would argue that it wasn't genuine otherwise he wouldn't have done that. If he had genuine one after, then he could go to Heaven.

No True Scotsman, doncha know.

[Major Nikon]

17. You have DUers here who use the No True Scotsman regarding Christians who do bad things

It goes something like they weren't a "real" Christian because no "real" Christian would have done that.

[Mariana]

18. Yes, only non-Christians can do bad things.

Furthermore, if you dare to say that some person who did a bad thing is a Christian, then you are smearing ALL Christians, because that's exactly the same as saying ALL Christians do that same bad thing. You better put the word Christian in quotes, and add a bunch of modifiers to make it perfectly clear to everyone that the person who did the bad thing isn't a "real" Christian.

I think my current favorite modifier is "self-identified Christian" as if that actually means something. Are there Christians out there who aren't self-identified Christians? How would that work, exactly?

[MineralMan]

19. Interesting, isn't it?

I like your "self-defined Christians" sentence. The other line that is often used is that "Christianity isn't a religion; it's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." It can only be a personal decision, right? Every Christian is a "self-defined" Christian. That's the whole point.

[Mariana]

20. LOL, my rant was really about another thread

elsewhere on DU, in which posters insisted that John Earnest be called that, so they can pretend he isn't a Christian. The rant fit well enough here that I went ahead and posted it. Yes, I do feel better now.

[Major Nikon]

21. Also religion can never blamed when a religionist does something bad

Because that's just "human nature".

But religion gets all the credit whenever a religionist does something good because they were obviously divinely inspired.

Funny how that works.

[struggle4progress]

8. ... Peoples' mother, Leevell Peoples of Sacramento, California, said Wednesday

that she couldn’t imagine any situation in which her mild-mannered son would deliberately crash into innocent people, other than something related to the PTSD she said he experienced after serving as an Army sharpshooter in Iraq.

“Unless the car malfunctioned, he would not have done that. He’s like the perfect, model citizen,” she said. “He’s an Army vet, he’s a good kid, never been arrested. I promise you: It was not deliberate. If anything, it was that Army.”

Peoples, who is an auditor for the Department of Defense in Mountain View, received inpatient treatment for PTSD in 2015, his mother said ...

Motorist held on 8 counts attempted murder

By Juliet Williams, Jocelyn Gecker and Janie Har
AP April 24

[MineralMan]

11. Nevertheless...

[Voltaire2]

14. I'm confused, is he mild mannered or is he

suffering from PTSD associated violent behavior? Or is his religiousness a symptom of his PTSD psychosis?

The prosecutor seems to be saying that this was a deliberate hate crime and that he has expressed no remorse.

[Cartoonist]

22. That's another excuse

He may have been a Christian, but that had nothing to do with it. It was PTSD. Never mind that he didn't run into a group of soccer players or some track runners. No, he ran into the enemy of his religion.

[struggle4progress]

23. A fact can hardly be dismissed as an "excuse"

[Cartoonist]

24. Why not blame it on his shoes?

It's a fact he was wearing them.

[struggle4progress]

25. Let's see: the Iraq war was explicitly sold to the public as a great crusade as Islam;

and the fellow in question was part of that. He was trained to kill the people identified to him as the enemy; and it seems well established that combat experiences can produce long-term psychological problems, associated with phenomena such as reverting unpredictably to a homicidal frame-of-mind

So there might be some comprehensible "explanation" for his behavior, in terms of the times in which he has lived and his personal experiences

[Mariana]

12. Depending on which part of the Bible his group were studying

maybe it's not so ironic after all.

[Major Nikon]

13. But as for these enemies of mine, ...

who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.

Luke 19:27

but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, 4 and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5

The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.

Deuteronomy 17:12

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

It's not irony when someone actually follows the instruction book.

[Locrian]

26. when you say "religion" what do you mean?

religion in the sense of an organized "sect" or group of people ?
or
religion in the sense of spirituality or philosophy - more individual stuff?

either way there can be good or bad parts - but it's when you get to the organized religion and it's use to control, direct, etc that you really get problems

[rickford66]

27. Well said MineralMan

"Religion is indifferent in its influence on society. It is neither a force for good, nor a force for evil. It is simply a reflection of those who worship it. That's the irony of religion. Religion doesn't care, one way or another. People do things, not religions."