My missive to a Friend trying to convince me 'eternal souls' are a real thing ...

[Hugh_Lebowski]

Thank you for trying to convince me that this magical concept you're discussing is actually a 'real thing'. I think we all wish that we (and our loved ones, human or otherwise) are magically in possession of 'eternal life'. I WANT to believe like you, but I just can't.

At the most basic level, there should be tangible, testable evidence for the existence of afterlives, but there's not. The sorts of anecdotal evidence individuals provide of 'visitations' (that you're relying on) never actually stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny.

EVER.

But here's the bright side for me ... I look around at what we know about the universe we live in, an unfathomably immense vacuum for the most part, cold, black, hostile and devoid-of-life everywhere we've ever been able to observe (with really advanced equipment) ... and yet, here I am, alive!

I'm not saying the planet Earth is the only time the Universe has had life at our level, but I believe it's likely very rare. As such, ALL OUR LIVES, and the lives of every being that's ever existed on this planet ... are, statistically-speaking, a friggin miracle. Not a magical one, but a statistical one. On a cosmic scale, we've all won the lottery.

Your belief system relies on the idea that there's an additional, basically WAY MORE EVOLVED overlay ... than what the greatest scientists (MANY of whom wanted to believe in exactly what you do) have ever scientifically observed to exist.

IMHO, 'afterlives' are just a form of made-up magical shit, like witches and leprechauns, souls, and psychics, and similar things. There's no TANGIBLE evidence for any of it.

I mean ... what's your explanation for why 'souls' exist? What forces in this universe caused them to come into being? Why WOULD they exist? You have no idea, you just 'suppose' they exist. For no actual reason.

Well, here's the reason many people do. We are the product of over 2B years of evolution on this planet, and EVERY species that are our ancestors ... possessed an innate desire TO SURVIVE.

And once our brains advanced to the point where we could conceive of the idea of 'eternal life' ... humanity began fostering it. Esp. as a means of 'leaders' to control others, give themselves a competitive advantage. See for example the Roman Catholic church, though they're far from the first.

Dangling the concept of eternal life over people's heads (if they comply with 'leaders') has led to a lot of evil throughout history. Lot's of good too I imagine mostly in the form of 'comfort', but ultimately, it's a tool of control.

Anyways, I focus on the fact that my life ... all of our lives ... are incredibly unlikely given the conditions of the universe as we know it. The lives we get to live are damn near miracles ... but the reason why we have these lives is supported by scientific observations. We KNOW why we're here now. We largely understand the processes and the science behind the forces that allow for us to exist as CORPOREAL beings.

I believe, at the core of my being ... that eternal life is a made-up concept. At the same time, I'd LOVE for it to be true. We ALL WOULD.

I feel like I'm incredibly blessed to have ever lived in this corporeal form, and I don't expect anything as drastically more complex, like 'magical eternal souls', to be underlying this whole experience.

I am ... my body and brain. Period. When it dies, I die. Except for people's memories of me. I'm okay with it, and I think it's a liberating idea for humanity

[elleng]

1. 'Except for people's memories of me.'

Thank you.

Yesterday, I told my daughter that, at any 'memorial' for me, I'd like this to be played:

[progressoid]

8. +1

Nice.

[progree]

23. Thanks! Here's one with an orchestra in performance

[elleng]

24. Thank you.

[dchill]

2. I don't know anything for sure, but evidence is on your side...

...and mine. I agree that when your body dies, you die. This is all that has ever been supported by demonstrable facts. Yet, somehow, kooky religious capos and imposters are calling the shots and making the rules - which always seem to involve bastardizing the Constitution.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

3. We as humans (generally speaking) have an inherent proclivity to SURVIVE

If any of our many, many genetic ancestors lacked the desire to survive, we'd have never evolved as a species. They'd have died off and we wouldn't 'be'. That's a logical presumption, right?

So a couple billions of years later, shaped by evolutionary forces, we possess a brain so imaginative, so creative ... that we can, as a species ... contemplate that hey, maybe our bodies could die (which is demonstrably inevitable), but there's some magical force in the universe that could keep us alive forever and ever!

To me it's perhaps inevitable that the intellect to conceive of that idea would eventually develop, given enough time, fostered by a relatively stable planet/environment.

I fully admit it's EXTREMELY tantalizing to our species. But that doesn't make it 'real'.

[dchill]

13. When the tantalizing becomes the real...

... you're probably kidding yourself.

[BigmanPigman]

4. I have had many experiences over the years

and I am an atheist. I don't know what the hell happens after you die but I know something happens since I have heard very specific things. It isn't creepy or scary but once you have several of these you definitely know that something is happening that we can't explain yet and we must accept this.

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy (science)."

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. What happens is that the living will perceive 'signs' as a result of grief/stress

You look for signs, because you want there to be signs, and your brain either manifests them or mistakes normal corporeal things ... as magical.

Our perceptions are far from perfect. We think they are, but they're not.

Anything that looks like magic is in some sense ... a trick. An illusion.

There's no magic. No ghosts or afterlives or souls or any of that sort of thing.

But the actual, physical lives we've all gotten to lead? Are so much more than miraculous than any of us had any right to hope for. The time we got to exist on Earth as these intelligent beings? It could be the first time in, say 100 Million Years, that within 10,000 light years from earth, creatures like us existed for a few 1000 years. Random numbers because I obvs I don't really know, but point is, we're all so, so ... unlikely.

Why do you insist there's a magical, unexplainable overlay on the whole thing? If there's magic in the universe that powerful, then hell, why wasn't the Earth created like it says in the Bible? 6000 years ago?

I mean, once you start randomly believing in whatever random magical concept suits you, what's to rule out ANYTHING from being true? Like God and Heaven and Hell?

[Samrob]

6. "W know why we are here now" Why? nt

[Hugh_Lebowski]

7. Sorry that was poorly phrased ...

I'm guessing your asking in something of a metaphysical sense, like there's 'a purpose to life' kind of thing?

Yeah, no, I didn't mean it like that.

I meant it scientifically. Physics, Chemistry, Natural Selection, like 1B years of primitive plant life that generated an O2-rich atmosphere for animals to develop in, a proximity to the Sun in the distance range that allows for water in all 3 of it's states to exist terrestrially, a rocky planet, a relatively large moon creating tides, a tilt of the planet that produces distinct seasons, one with a molten core producing a magnetic field the protects the planet from various forms of cosmic radiation, that has had few large scale collisions with other large celestial objects (only 2 huge ones since life developed in earnest), and has volcanic and tectonic activity, and an orbit that is not tidally-locked with our star ... do I need to go on, there's lots more?

Quite honestly ... I think there's at least some chance we're the most intelligent beings to have evolved in the entire universe. I wouldn't necessarily bet on it, but this planet, and we ... could actually be that special. At least for a long time, and within a radius the size of which our minds can't really contemplate.

[ancianita]

9. This atheist agrees. Still. Why do we imagine a distant past? Why science, beauty, stories, love?

Here's an imaginative story of science, beauty, love, and a distant past, from Roland Emmerich's Moonfall, last year.

[cachukis]

10. When I was 16 I had a long conversation with myself about the soul.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition and taught by the nuns and the clergy. They insisted that the soul was eternal.
I questioned them, after my walk in the desert, about the soul never needing to sleep through eternity.
When I asked them, "How is it then, that my soul is not awake during much of my sleep? I should have the consciousness of eternity with my sleepless soul."
I never received a satisfactory answer, even as I pose that question today.
When the chemical reaction stops, so do we.

[joshdawg]

11. The only ones who know for sure.....

are dead and they aren't talking.

[Irish_Dem]

12. Actually there is some excellent scientific research on this topic.

Look up Dr. Ian Stevenson.

[Karadeniz]

15. Thank you!!!!! I've referred people to his writing before. Also, Your Eternal Self (which deals with

Here and now events) shows that we are paranormal... we possess abilities that can't be explained by the human brain.

[Irish_Dem]

16. Research by PhDs and MDs resonate the most with me, because I am a PhD

and my training is in the scientific method. So I want to see research done using that methodology.

That said, I don't discount out of hand, the non science reports.
They are interesting too.

I was a military kid and lived in Southeast Asia for a big chunk of my childhood.
So the idea of eastern religions doesn't seem foreign or unusual to me.

A huge portion of the human race believes in reincarnation so I am fascinated by it.

Also I am retired now, but was a psychologist in clinical practice for over 40 years.
I saw too many things happening with clients that defy current scientific knowledge.
Maybe it isn't paranormal, maybe we just don't understand the human brain fully at this time.

Or maybe there is something spiritual, paranormal going on.
We don't know. I rule nothing out.

[Warpy]

20. Since it seems to be hard wired in so many people

I've often wondered if it is a form of the third man factor, a built in presence that supports people in times of extreme stress.

Don't forget there's also an Irish form of reincarnation, something my mother fervently believed, especially once she'd finally read the bible and kicked the church to the curb. She said she wanted her next adventure to be as a river otter, they always looked like they were getting a kick out of life and didn't have that many predators. 6 months after she died, there was a snippet on the news that a family of river otters had been spotted in the state for the first time in 50 years. Cue Twilight Zone music. I did get a laugh out of it.

So who knows? Nobody's come back to tell us. Part of me will always hope my mother is now sledding down white water rapids and running up the bank to take another ride. Part hopes it's just bliss fading to nothingness. Part of me is anticipating the adventure (I'm old) and none of me anticipates a heaven and hell and angels and all that other crap.

[Irish_Dem]

29. Yes humans could be hard wired to have fantasy religious beliefs as a coping mechanism.

Religion may serve an adaptive function, a way to cope with difficult times.
To cope with loss and death, etc.

Oh yes the Irish Druids and ancient peoples did believe in reincarnation
according to ancient Irish mythology.

Interestingly YDNA testing of my brother shows that our male Irish line
is one of the most ancient Irish tribes, pre celt, even pre-Druid.
So we were there from the beginning, doing all kinds of pagan things.

Yes it would be nice if human mythology were real.
There is a god and an afterlife.

Yes dying could be an incredible adventure.

I am pretty sure if there is a God and heaven, it is nothing like the human version.
Distorted to fit narrow human minds.

If there is a God, heaven, etc it is going to blow our minds.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

21. Okay, nothing wrong with 'no ruling anything out', being open-minded

That's reasonable scientific thinking. I mean as long its not like 'well, I won't rule out the possibility that one time I'm going to drop a brick and it's going just float weightless in the air where I let go of it'

But given humanities 'record' when it comes to 'thinking XYZ has a paranormal/magical/God-related cause or source' throughout history basically amounts to Science: 1000's of things, Things shown to be Magical: 0 ... can we at least stipulate to the logical conclusion being ... it's far more likely that nothing we don't currently understand 100% ... is ever going to turn out to be paranormal or supernatural ... in the end?

[Irish_Dem]

30. If you get a PhD you quickly learn how rigid and narrow the academic community tends to be.

Doctoral students want to conduct research on all kinds of topics related to their fields of study,
but their advisors and committee members slap that notion right out of their heads.

Yes I understand that scientific knowledge has to carefully and painstakingly built upon current and past knowledge.
And we cannot go off on tangents with no merit.

But there should be some wiggle room for people with vision and creativity.

Religion is a constant, iconic part off human existence. But we don't study it.
Why is it there, what purpose does it serve, is it hard wired in.

Just like love is an iconic part of human existence and there is not much research on the topic.
At least until more recently.

These are not seen as serious, legitimate topics in academic research.
So we just ignore some of the most innate, core parts of humanity.

Yes I agree, I think some of the things we consider nonsensical or woo-woo will turn out
to be perfectly normal human traits that we have yet to study and understand.

I think some psychic phenomena will turn out to have scientific merit.
Carl Jung believed in the collective unconscious, etc.
Which modern day physicists talk about, all things are connected.

In fact when I listen to theoretical physicists talk, they sound just like New Age experts.
Both seem to say a lot of the same thing.

[Farmer-Rick]

25. Why didn't he win the Nobel prize?

If he had, (Not has, seems God killed him too.) valid scientific research to prove the afterlife, reincarnation or magical out of body living, he should have been acclaimed in every scientific magazine and religious woo-woo science magazines everywhere.

He should have won every scientific award available. Human kind has been trying to find proof for the afterlife for thousands of years. If someone had actually done it, aside from science awarding him, every preacher and priest would be spouting his name.

But I never heard of the man in my 67 years, and I read a lot about religion, science and news.

[Irish_Dem]

31. Because eastern religions already believe in reincarnation and have since ancient times.

So there is no need to give awards to someone who is proving what is already known to them.

And the Christian religions don't want to hear anything outside their narrow belief system.
Christian dogma states we are eternal souls which live forever. But then we are never told
what that eternal life is like. Sitting on a cloud with angels seems to be it. Which is a woefully
inadequate explanation.

Research shows that half the world's population believe in an afterlife.
The eastern religions talk about what that life might be like.
Christians are simply not interested.

[Farmer-Rick]

32. Eastern Religions have no more proof or evidence than any other religion

Belief is not evidence or proof of anything. I don't care if 100% of the world's population believe in an afterlife. It just means people are good at indoctrinating their children with false belief systems.

If there was real evidence it would be shouted from the rooftops and awarded. It would be in all the scientific papers. The experiment proving the afterlife would be repeated over and over again. Everyone would want to try and prove it for themselves. I would want to see it carried out.

But there is absolutely no evidence of an afterlife. It is a con so others can control you and to keep you from demanding fairness and equality in this life.

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon Bonaparte

If you got evidence write it up and go get your Nobel prize. Go become the most famous person in the world. Even Eastern Religions would love to see real evidence of their afterlife beliefs.

[Karadeniz]

14. I see a lot of the same old reactions here. There's tons of evidence about the existence of Mind

after death, but I've wasted too much time listing them earlier. People's reactions to evidence suggesting a belief contrary to gut instinct reminds me of my discussion with my hairdresser yesterday. I quoted the 2A, made no difference that permitless, open carry hardly resembled a well regulated militia.

[Mr.Bill]

17. If one frees themselves from the bonds of time,

the split second you die can be eons of afterlife.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

19. The list of things that humans once believed had origins in Gods and Magic is IMMENSE

Gods made you, and all the animals and plants. Gods made it rain or not rain, Gods made Thunder and Lightning. Gods made Fire. Gods made your crops grow. Gods decided whether your wife got pregnant. Gods caused your wife to miscarry. Gods made you sick. Gods made you well after being sick. Gods held up the Earth in the Cosmos. Gods pulled the sun across the sky.

Etc, Etc, Etc.

None of that was true, but we had to advance technologically to be able to show and understand ... why none of those things had a magic-based cause.

The overwhelming arc of history suggests that the tiny fraction of remaining subjects we still can't entirely explain ... and in some circles suppose to be a manifestation of the supernatural ... will eventually turn out to NOT have a magical source.

I side with the fairly simple math here, no offense

[Karadeniz]

28. No offense taken, but that Japanese physicist... you know him... said there were eleven

dimensions. I don't understand that, but there may be things that will never be resolved by the standards of this reality, no matter how technologically advanced we become.

[Farmer-Rick]

26. Well, if you got the evidence

Write up your paper and go win the Nobel prize in science.

I guarantee you, you will win that prize if you can prove that our minds exist after death. People have been studying this issue for thousands of years. And no one yet has ever proved any such thing. But if you got scientific evidence, write up your research and publish it. You would be more famous than Einstein.

[Warpy]

18. Memeory, likes and dislikes, outlook on life, all that stuff

that makes up what we call personality dies when the brain does. I'm grateful for that, I was a nurse too long and my childhood was a shitshow and there are a lot of memories I don't want. Of course, the ego is what most people want to go on, intact. Uh, nope.

Something very profound happens in the brain after death and we have no idea what it is, electrical activity peaking, ripples of energy back and forth. This is likely responsible for the near death stories. It seems to be euphoric for most people.

No one who has experienced brain death and cessation of activity has ever come back to tell us what's in store. No one knows. It's the last adventure. My own feeling is that we ride out on a tide of happy hormones. An hour of bliss would be lovely. An eternity of it would be intensely boring.

I can tell you that if all I find is that nasty, naked Santa Claus looking man with his green eyeshade and account book, bony finger pointing the way to a hell, I will be extremely disappointed in the workings of the universe.

[Easterncedar]

22. This is something that resonates (smiley face) with me

From so long ago, I don’t remember where I got it:

I know there are a whole lot of people here who have also lost someone who was utterly irreplaceable, some very recently. This really helped me. I hope it helps you. I'm not sure of the original source, but it is, basically, a eulogy from a physicist.
===

You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen.
-Aaron Freeman

[Farmer-Rick]

27. I like to think when I visit my dead spouse's grave

I get their atoms all over me.

They have been dead for over 4 years and some of the atoms that were inside them are surely being used by the grass and trees around them by now.

A devout Southern Baptist, it was their death that pushed me into letting go of all belief in the supernatural and a god. Actually that has brought me more peace than thinking of them in that awful notion of a heaven or hell. Good or bad, black or white, no middle ground?

Also, I like to think that an inanimate, unthinking universe has managed to create something that can understand it. That is just amazing. Who needs a god now?

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

33. I don't want it

I think we all wish that we (and our loved ones, human or otherwise) are magically in possession of 'eternal life'. I WANT to believe like you, but I just can't.

I can't think of anything more horrifying than eternal life. It would be the most awful thing, ever. I especially don't want the eternal life in the christian heaven. Imagine it: Having to spend all of eternity praising:

arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully

.

And worst of all, having to do it surrounded by a bunch of wankers, gits and tossers you couldn't stand being around in this lifetime.

Tell me what torment could be worse than that.

I dare you.