So my S.O. just informed me she may be joining a fundy church

[orangecrush]

I thought this group might be the place to get some sane answers.

We are both over 50, known each other for 30 years or so. She has always been a very tolerant and even minded person, and has done a lot to help disadvantaged kids in the neighborhood. Basically has a heart of gold.

She does home care for elderly, got to be friends with the family of a client. Went to bingo with the daughter and son in law of the client. I wasn't invited, but didn't worry about it.

Last night she informed me she is attending a "prayer meeting" tonight for 3 hours at the AOG church, a fundamentalist Pentecostal megachurch near us, and will be attending services with them on Sundays.

I had some rather ugly run ins with some of these fundies back in the Bush years, when Ridge was my governor. I know what they represent quite well.

I showed her a couple of news articles that gave examples of cult like and even illegal acts by this group (members held a young woman they claimed was "demonically possessed" prisoner until she suffered a nervous breakdown, this was in a different area. The woman won a settlement.)

She became very defensive.

I do know I do not want any fundies in my life, and told her why.

Any advice on dealing with cult recruiters would be appreciated.

[Autumn]

1. Get out. Run do not walk.

And never look back.

[flying_wahini]

2. Start packing.

[IbogaProject]

3. Study the things Jesus said which they don't

Sermon on the mout, the meek shall inherit the earth and the good Samaritan. Sorry but that "comradre" can be infectious. Big issue is those places need money, that pastor has to raise his own retirement money ontop of all the expenses.

[orangecrush]

7. They believe homosexuality is a "sin"

That can be "cured" by prayer.

Assemblies of God churches insist that those who engage in homosexual activity should cease such behavior, as with any sin. The Church of God In Christ has taken similar positions which condemn homosexuality and same sex marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › L...
List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia

[Zoomie1986]

45. First of all, they do study those things

Second, the sermon on the mount isn't the win you think it is:

As a whole, the Sermon on the Mount is, to put it bluntly, a bad sermon. Beyond giving some bad advice, it doesn't have any underlying theme. It is a hodgepodge of bottled wisdom. No section leads into another section, and often the advice within the sections are contradictory.

As but one example of how bad it is as a moral guide:

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Taken literally this is stupid advice. Taken figuratively, it's still bad advice. Essentially, he's saying that it is wise to deny your nature instead of working to understand it, change it or channel it into productive, positive results.

And that's only the beginning of how much of a fail it is.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160305060810/http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_Mount

[IbogaProject]

48. Thank you

[LakeArenal]

4. She's a free American. Unfortunately she has made her decisions.

Seems like you need to make a very hard decision.



Good luck.

[orangecrush]

6. I got into it with a few of them

On a local forum back at the beginning of Bushes first term.

Somehow they got my identity (not hard on a local forum for a small city).

I dealt with a fair amount of harassment.

They were open about the churches support for Bush and Ridge, which really makes me wonder how they keep a nonprofit status.

[gay texan]

5. You dont want to go down this road

Get out....

[orangecrush]

8. Yeah, that's a given

When they first put public computers in the local library, they used to go sit in there and harass people.

They hated the Internet because they did not control the flow of information.

One of them actually unplugged my computer while I was watching a Metallica YouTube clip. (Pre Google takeover).

I controlled myself enough to stand up, go complain to the librarian, and leave without getting myself in trouble.

Stopped seeing them after another month or so, believe enough people complained that they got banned.

[NNadir]

9. I have a sister-in-law in this space for over 30 years.

I have learned to tolerate it, although it was often touch and go.

Tolerating it meant accepting that the cult took precedence over family always, even her own daughter although mutual tolerance evolved there too.

I could never live with her though. It would be a deal breaker.

I'm not you, but experience teaches that cult membership involves the loss of love and respect. Think of it as if it were an affair, and the SO has announced that you're second in affection to the new lover.

That would be my advice.

[progressoid]

10. Hmmm...

Is there something else going on (obviously I don't need details)? It's just that in my experience with this sort of thing, when a person has some sort of internal conflict o questions that need addressing they sometimes turn to religion hoping for an easy solution. When my wife's father passed away she started going to church. After a couple years she got tired of the hypocrisy and judging by the church members and quit going. She is now an avowed atheist.

Has your S.O. expressed an interest in other religions or denominations?

Not to sound all new-agey but maybe she's looking for an answer to the big question of Life, The Universe and Everything.* Of course that doesn't explain the choice to go to a fundy church. One can find fellowship and "answers" at a less harsh church. That is a little concerning.



*42

[orangecrush]

12. I suggested

Attending a non fundie church (without putting it quite like that).

It seems it's not so much the church she's interested in, but acceptance by people she is impressed by. (Expensive house in a rich area, can afford whatever they want, etc.)

She hasn't even spoken about religious principles, just about how great the fundies are and how nice they are to her. (Which I'm sure they are.)

I expect to be kicked to the curb once they find out I am a Biden voting "evildoer".

[progressoid]

15. I kind of get that.

I had a brother who attended church semi-regularly just for the fellowship into adulthood. He had serious reservations/questions about his church teachings and Christianity in general. But he liked interacting with people.

I think most of us in this forum look at religious people an understandably suspicious eye. Add being a fundy to the mix and that suspicion gets magnified.

[Zoomie1986]

46. Except that's not how it works in reality

It's brainwashing, and it was done deliberately. For several hours at a time, she had no choice about being in close quarters with people who have the agenda of converting everyone they meet to their cult, and they are relentless about it.

Same thing with all of those people brainwashed into right-wing extremism from listening to talk-radio and watching Fox. This is a good outline of how easily and insidiously it happens:

The right wing borrowed these techniques from religion. Because they work to create unquestioning followers, far too often.

[intheflow]

11. Have you asked her why she wants to go?

Is it only because friends invited her? Or is she also having some kind of spiritual crisis? Why weren’t you invited to Bingo?

I am a former Unitarian Universalist minister, never much of a Believer, pretty much an atheist at this point. So this is my advice.

If it’s the first, let her go. I went to an apostolic church a few times in my early 20s because a work friend invited me. It was a primarily Black church and the music ROCKED! But I ended up only going twice because the theology was ridiculous! 90% “WE ALONE ARE SAVED and the rest will burn in a fiery hell!” for 10% music that would have put the Blues Brothers to shame, and each service was 6-8 hours long. They were nice people but they also preached you can’t be friends with people outside the faith. So when I stopped attending, my work friend basically unfriended me in real life (back before the internet). So if you trust your partner’s Spidey sense overall, you can probably trust her with this.

If her answer is, in part, because she’s in a place of spiritual search, let her go to her friend’s church and offer to bring her to “church shopping” for other enlightenment options. I understand fully that this will be excruciating for you, but hear me out. Find a local UU church, Buddhist temple, or liberal synagogue. If she’s hung up on JC, you could try liberal Christian denominations like the United Church of Christ (UCC), Episcopalian, Metropolitan Church (started by gay clergy), or American Baptist (Jimmy Carter’s flavor of Baptist). Even some Catholic Churches are pretty liberal. The reason you could try this is, as much as you don’t understand it, religion has been used for good in the world. I worked hurricane recovery after Katrina and without the financial and physical support of pretty much every Christian denomination we would never have been able to do the work. Think: Rev. MLK, Jr. fighting for civil rights, Carter’s Habitat for Humanity, Gandhi, or the liberal clergy filing law suits to protect women’s reproductive rights. What I’m trying to impress on you is religion isn’t necessarily bad, interpretations are. It’s given many people comfort and community, and been a voice for good as well as evil. (Though not as often. 🙁 ) And, yeah, the sermons will drive you NUTS, and you’ll spring an eye socket restraining your eye rolls, but you will also be showing your partner that you support her growth as a person, that YOU are her life partner, not the Bingo people. And if she sees you supporting her journey, she may be more amenable to choosing a much less toxic/healthier path to enlightenment (or whatever it is she’s looking for).

If the answer to the last question, why weren’t you invited, is because they felt ill at ease with a “stranger” coming, or some other reason (like maybe she once mentioned you are an athiest), then that is GROOMING behavior. If it was because she thought you might be uncomfortable and/or bored, that could be her being supportive of you.

TL;DR: Talk to your partner and encourage her to make healthy choices.

[orangecrush]

13. Best answer, thanks

What I didn't mention is that I'm a recovering alcoholic with 10 years of sobriety.

I was a staff member at a Catholic run rehab/farm for 8 of those years.

I was raised Catholic, and at this stage of my life would describe myself as Agnostic.

I came to this group with the issue, as I felt those with no religious prejudice would more easily understand my problem and offer sensible advice.

I am most grateful for the answers I have received here.

[intheflow]

14. Congrats on your 10 years!

Much respect! 🫡

Reading to your story, you might be a UU. But then, I might be biased.

[orangecrush]

16. Humans are infinitesimally tiny

In relation to the cosmos, we already know there are whole universes right in our own tiny world that we cannot perceive because of the limits of our senses, which we have extended only slightly with science.

An example being light at both ends of the spectrum invisible to our eyes.

I don't believe humans are capable of grasping the totality of existence and non existence.

I think that scares the bejeezus out of some people, it's a lot less scary to believe in an invisible sky daddy who pulled everything out of his ass not long ago, ie the creation fairy tale.

[Zoomie1986]

47. Agnostic isn't a religious position.

I don't know why people think it is. It isn't a middle ground between theism and atheism. Deism occupies that position, not agnosticism.

Almost all atheists are agnostic; Richard Dawkins is one of them. Many liberal Christians and Jews are as well. The word itself tells you why agnostics can be either believers or non-believers. Agnostic. The a=without, while gnostic comes from the Greek gnosis = knowledge of gods. If it were a belief position, one would use (a)theist, from the Greek theós = gods or belief in gods.

[multigraincracker]

28. Great advice. I attend a UU Fellowship and

never claim to be an Atheist, also claim to be a Secular Humanist.
Also now own a Red Letter Bible. All the words of Jesus are in red. Love to bring up the Beatitudes as I find them heart warming. The Old Testament seem to be most quoted in Fundy churches.

I like the idea of compromise. Offer the attend a less strict church together.

[intheflow]

38. If you like the Red Letter Bible, you might also like the Jefferson Bible.

Jefferson went through the entire New Testament in English, Greek, Latin, and French, comparing versions. He took out most of the miracles, seeking Jesus as human alone, and not divine. It’s pretty cool if you’re into that stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

[Buzz cook]

17. Practice kindness.

If this person has been your SO for so many years it seems you'd have a strong emotional attachment to them. Cutting ties as some have suggested seems extreme and a waste of a years long emotional investment.

I'd suggest you share clearly how much you value this person and how important they are in your life. Then support them, no not the decision to join a cult, but them as an independent person.
Then set boundaries. Explain your lack of belief and your reasons for it. Explain that you will not accept proselytizing or whatever thing that you find unacceptable. But remain open to conversation and show a willingness to listen and answer any questions they have.

Be careful of ridicule, snark, or being dismissive. Your SO might take it personally and become defensive. In that vein it's probably a bad idea to be aggressive against this church or your SO's new friends. Treat them with kindness as respect as well, even as you explain you don't respect their beliefs.

Consider educating yourself on apologetic (the defense of the faith) and anti-apologetic.
Don't preach, be kind, be the SO that your partner deserves.

[orangecrush]

20. Great response

Thank you.

[Warpy]

18. You don't want to make her defensive, so no more confrontations, they don't work.

If she's feeling the need for community, you might explore whether she's open to going to a UU church or something more mainstream like the Anglicans with you instead of a fundagelical cult without you. Right now, the AOG people are love bombing her, so it's going to be a tough choice, respect that.

If not, recognize how seductive this shit can be. You might have the choice of either forcing her to leave or watching her just slip away. These people know what they're doing, they don't get people on the soundness of their theology or on compassion or anything else good, they love bomb them and suck them right in.

I won't tell you there is no hope, a cousin's daughter and SIL got sucked into a prosperity theology megachurch in the 00s. It took them about six months or so to notice the only prosperity that was happening was happening to the preacher, who was living large on tithes of family gross (not net) incomes. Sometimes people realize the funny equations just don't add up. It's pretty rare, though.

FWIW, I've known people in the AOG who were fine to deal with, although definitely not people I'd want for SOs. While individuals can be assholes, that's true of any group you can name. They're certainly far from the worst fundies out there. I'd be tempted to give it some time, letting her explore. I'd also be figuring out how best to divvy up the assets if worst came to worst, but that's just me.

[orangecrush]

23. Thanks Warpy

Great input, I'm familiar with the concept of love bombing, as far as cults and narcissists use it as a tool.

I'm going to give it some time, and at the same time have a plan B.

[Collimator]

19. You refer to this person as your S.O.

Meaning Significant Other? If you two aren't married and she goes full Bible Believer, then you guys are going to have to rethink your sleeping arrangements one way or the other.

Wishing you luck. I could recommend some Bible verses that anyone with an ounce of empathy would question. (Deuteronomy 22 comes to mind) but offering the person love while reaffirming your own values is all that I can recommend.

[orangecrush]

22. Thank you

[HeartsCanHope]

24. I grew up in a fundy church.

I left years ago because I grew tired of women and the LGBTQIA+ community being bashed all the time. My birth family, (can't think of any way else to explain it,) is still in the church, so I don't get together with them anymore. Got tired of all the "interventions" when we got together. Painful and hurtful.
If she's supportive of any type of diversity it will get old very fast. Does the church have a website with some of their sermons on it? It might be useful to hear what the minister says. Might make it easier if you want to try to reason with her, (and you can turn that off if it upsets you. Less embarrassing than leaving a church.)
I have to agree with the others though, she won't listen until she's ready. My husband never criticized my birth family or religion, and just let me come to my decision to leave in my own time. I tried to get him to go with me to church, and he went a couple of times, but told me it wasn't for him. It was never a "it's them or me" situation, my husband is a wise and kind man. I couldn't go along with the church's and my birth family's political choices, either, after a time. My birth family also made it impossible to tolerate their behavior toward my little family, manipulative and hateful. I'm so much happier without them. Holidays can be hard emotionally, (miss seeing extended family,) but at least holidays aren't stressful or painful anymore. Having peace is worth it!
I hope you can work things out. Take care.

[orangecrush]

31. Thanks so much

I'm really glad things worked out for you!

I'm going to take your husband's approach, and let things take their natural course.

Glad things worked out for you in the end!

[HeartsCanHope]

37. Thank you.

Best decision I ever made.

[LT Barclay]

25. I would suggest a gift of 2 books:

God’s Politics by Jim Wallis and
Green Like God by Johnathon Merritt
because a true understanding of the Bible should reinforce progressive values not work against them. Or as I usually prefer to say, if a person calls themselves Christian and republican, they either don’t understand republicans or don’t understand Jesus.

[orangecrush]

32. Thanks much!

Appreciate the reference!

[GPV]

26. Suggest a unitarian universalist church as a compromise?

[orangecrush]

33. Possibly

After she gets over this.

[samnsara]

27. let her know you are willing to sacrifice your relationship....

..for your own sanity...





as that's what she's saying to you...

[orangecrush]

36. Yep

[MorbidButterflyTat]

29. Did she tell you

or did you ask her WHY? Maybe she simply enjoys her client's company, like at bingo.

Maybe she became defensive because of the "cult" stuff.

It seems a pity to chuck a relationship without having a real discussion first.

[orangecrush]

30. Discussion was had

I understand what you're saying.

Here's part of my issue -

"But Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith;" and said that Jesus "operated from that position of war mode."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205

That was in Alaska.

The worldview of our local chapter wasn't/isn't much different.

Not chucking the relationship.

Just a rough stretch of road.

[UniqueUserName]

34. I would approach the situation from a realpolitik perspective.

For instance, marriage vows are traditionally till death parts us. It matters little what you believe happens to us after we die. What matters is how you're going to live and treat other people now.

Will your Significant Other (SO) require that 10% of household income be donated to her church? Will SO merely donate 10% of their portion of household income? Will tithing be 10% of disposable income?

Will your SO compromise with a "sinner"? Will SO be uncompromising against any perceived sin?
-----------
If it's not a sore subject, can you discuss ideals in the abstract? I like to ask, "What percentage of the population is basically good? How many people are trying to get along versus the percentage of people who are selfish and inconsiderate?" ----If that person answers that any percentage of the general population is basically good, they believe a heresy. Biblically, all humans are "fallen" and need "saving." I personally believe that most people are good which is what makes me a humanist and not a Christian.

.

[orangecrush]

35. Interesting

First, I'm not "tithing" anything to a "church" with a right wing agenda. If she does so out of her pocket, that's her business.

We often have discussions of the nature you describe.

They usually go well if I can avoid making her defensive.

I share your belief that people are basically good.

We are a social species.

[HeartsCanHope]

39. A thought...

My mother-in-law, one of my favorite people, said one of the most important parts of church for her was the social aspect. She liked being a part of a community. She wasn't someone who was overtly religious, but she was definitely a very social person. Could this be what your S.O. is missing? Imho, Covid took that sense of community from a lot of people. No community activities, isolation--could this wanting to join a church have to do with this? I find it hard to interact with people these days--the political climate, and in some ways I'm still having trouble going out again after getting used to staying home during Covid. (Mine is also being "homebody" and probably an introvert.) Maybe she's looking for more opportunities to help the community and feels this church will fill that need for her. She joins this church and has an instant community, a "family" with many opportunities to do "good". You talked about her work with young people. Fundy churches preach "good works" through "ministries". The Youth Ministry is very important in fundy churches and encompasses many roles, from social activities to community outreach. Just my 2 cents. You know her much more than I do.

[orangecrush]

40. I believe the community thing

Is a big part of it.

Thank you for the post.

[HeartsCanHope]

41. Then I think what you said about riding it out is the right approach.

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2024, 01:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Hang in there and take care.

[orangecrush]

42. Thank you

[Faux pas]

43. Did she tell you

WHY? Asking for a friend.

[Farmer-Rick]

44. I was married to a very religious person

For 37 years until they passed away. I was mostly atheist and they were Southern Baptist.

We were very happy together. Religion was just another thing we didn't agree on. To us it wasn't the end of the world not to agree. Sometimes I would go to church with them. Sometimes they went without me. Either way was fine. They went to a conservative church but was always arguing for pro abortion, marriage equality and kindness.

They didn't preach to me but we did argue about the existence of God. It was fine. We both liked to argue.

Until they passed away, neither of us changed our position on God.

But I will say we both agreed on politics. I may have been more liberal but both of our politics was very liberal. We both didn't hate LGBTQ+ and fought for legalizing marriage. Neither of us were bigots, racist or misogynist. We were pro choice and pro democracy. We both knew Trump was bad news.

Atheists and religious people can get along just fine. You don't have to agree on everything to love one another.

[Zoomie1986]

49. I can tell you now that your relationship is probably over.

The time to counter the influence of these emotional vampires was the first time she mentioned any interest in what they said about jebus or their church. Once she's at the going to church phase, she's lost to you. It's useless to expect her to change, and you will have no peace with her now that she's gone this far. She's only going to get worse by becoming relentless about dragging you down to her level with her.

Nothing you say, nothing you show her will persuade her that the church or the sect or whatever could be harmful. The first thing her cult programmers did was convince her that any criticism of the religion was not to be trusted, because it was the work of Satan. They are already well on their way to convincing her that as long as you are not joining her in her conversion, you are the enemy, a liar in league with Satan.

The book they follow is quite explicit about how they see anyone who doesn't agree with them:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

That's where you stand now. It's right out of the mouth of their deity. Matthew 10:34-36.

Unless you want to become part of the cult, get out now, and never look back. Nobody is worth the aggravation you'll endure if you don't.