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HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 02:10 PM Oct 2013

Chairman Mao: The real inventor of “traditional Chinese medicine”

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/10/25/chairman-mao-inventor-of-traditional-chinese-medicine/

"Most, if not virtually all, of what is now referred to as “traditional Chinese medicine” is quackery. I realize that it’s considered “intolerant” and not politically correct to say that in these days of “integrative medicine” departments infiltrating academic medical centers like so much kudzu enveloping a telephone pole, but I don’t care. I’m supposed to be impressed that the M.D. Anderson and Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Centers, among others, have lost their collective mind and now “integrate” prescientific nonsense along with their state-of-the-art cancer therapy? I don’t think so. I can be puzzled by it. I can be dismayed by it. I can even be enraged by the infiltration of woo into prestigious medical centers. I am not, however, impressed by it, at least not in the sense that I’m about to jump on the bandwagon and embrace pseudoscience, too. I will admit, however, to being impressed—but not in a good way—with the ability of clinical leaders at such institutions who really should know better to embrace pure pseudoscience, including acupuncture, tongue diagnosis, the balancing of hot, cold, damp, and the other things that TCM claims to balance, and the vitalism that is at the heart of TCM in the form of qi, the undetectably imaginary life “energy” whose flow is supposedly redirected to healing effect by acupuncture.

Particularly galling about the ascendency of TCM in the US is the myth that is swallowed whole by its advocates. That myth is the very history of TCM, whose true origins are unknown by all but a very few. Contrary to popular belief (particularly about acupuncture), those beliefs do not go back thousands of years into antiquity, when the ancient healing wisdom of the Chinese was supposedly first discovered. In actuality, very few people are aware that the single person most responsible for the current popularity of TCM was not some ancient Chinese healer but rather Chairman Mao Zedong. That’s why an article published by Alan Levinovitz in Slate.com entitled Chairman Mao Invented Traditional Chinese Medicine is so important.

...

Indeed, what’s interesting about Levinovitz’s article is his description of how the exportation of TCM to the world was quite deliberate, as part of a strategy to popularize it among the Chinese. There was a problem, however. As Levinovitz noted, there was no such thing as “traditional Chinese medicine.” Rather, there were traditional Chinese medicines. For many centuries, healing practices in China had been highly variable, and attempts at institutionalizing medical education were mostly unsuccessful and “most practitioners drew at will on a mixture of demonology, astrology, yin-yang five phases theory, classic texts, folk wisdom, and personal experience.” While it’s irresistible (to me, at least) to make an analogy to how naturopaths draw from a wide variety of quackeries, TCM is not naturopathy. Mao realized that TCM would be unappealing to foreigners, as even many Chinese, particularly those with an education, realized that TCM was mostly quackery. For instance, in 1923, Lu Xun realized that “Chinese doctors are no more than a type of swindler, either intentional or unintentional, and I sympathize with deceived sick people and their families.” Such sentiments were common among the upper classes and the educated. Indeed, as we have seen, Mao himself didn’t use TCM practitioners. He wanted scientific “Western” medicine.

...

Moreover, acupuncture is probably not nearly as ancient as its advocates portray it. Common portrayals of acupuncture paint it as being 3,000 years old, as implausible as that is. Why implausible? For one thing, the technology to make such incredibly thin needles didn’t exist 3,000 years ago. For another thing, as Harriet Hall points out, the earliest Chinese medical texts from the 3rd century BC don’t mention acupuncture, and the earliest reference to “needling” is from 90 BC referring to bloodletting and lancing abscesses. Indeed, even by the 13th century the earliest accounts of Chinese medicine reaching the West didn’t mention acupuncture, and the first account of acupuncture by a Westerner in the 1600s described large golden needles inserted into the skull and left in place for 30 respirations. It has also been argued that acupuncture evolved from bloodletting based on astrology.

..."



A good read. It's also worth following the link to the original piece on Slate.

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Wilms

(26,795 posts)
1. Had I realized this would be the result...
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 03:59 PM
Oct 2013

I never would have put that thumb tack on your chair in the 2nd grade.

I apologize.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
3. What can I say? I've seen acupuncture work.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 09:15 AM
Oct 2013

I really didn't mean to offend anyone, nor open myself to ridicule. I've merely witnessed it work, not only on humans but for dogs as well.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
4. You've the same placebo effect as with any other placebo effect.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 10:58 AM
Oct 2013

Also, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Animal acupuncture
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/animal-acupuncture/

Is There a Placebo Effect for Animals?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/

The History of Veterinary Acupuncture: It’s Not What You Think
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/07/the-history-of-veterinary-acupuncture-its-not-what-you-think/

Can we finally just say that acupuncture is nothing more than an elaborate placebo?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/


BTW, I once convinced myself that it worked, including on my dog. I challenge my beliefs regularly. The evidence that does not do what "practitioners" claim it does is overwhelming. In the meantime, we allow people to spend years at school, accruing incredible debt to become acupuncturists. It makes no sense.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
5. The first thing apparent is that you have an axe to grind.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 12:00 PM
Oct 2013

That's not a criticism. Perhaps you had a disappointing experience and your conclusions about it drive your actions. I'm not a hell of a lot different. But given that, I have every reason to challenge YOUR beliefs.

Dog crawls into vet office and gets needled, then proceeds to do figure-eights on the lawn outside. So a placebo effect is possible? Well then, good enough. The dog is feeling better. Had the steroids previously prescribed done much to alleviate the symptoms I never would have been in a position to question yours.

Fact is, the steroids couldn't even muster a placebo effect worth mentioning.

And just so ya know, I rely on and have received help from western medicine in cases where herbs and acupuncture couldn't fully resolve the condition. In that way, I am quite the free person. I don't need bias. I need results. I go and get them, wherever they are.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
6. No, I'm just looking at things with a truly open mind.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 01:22 PM
Oct 2013

Try it yourself. You might be surprised.

The ways we fool ourselves with our "personal experiences" are well documented.

PS:

Why We Need Science: “I saw it with my own eyes” Is Not Enough
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/why-we-need-science-i-saw-it-with-my-own-eyes-is-not-enough/

Anecdotes: Cheaper by the Dozen
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/anecdotes-cheaper-by-the-dozen/


PSS:

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
7. I'm sure we could round and round.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 02:15 PM
Oct 2013

Was I too discontinue the treatment that worked in favor of one that didn't?

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
8. Again, the evidence is clear. It's not working.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 02:25 PM
Oct 2013

And again, I once thought it worked. Try digging into the full story. I've offered some very good places to start.

You may realize that you don't need to spend so much time and so many resources on something that offers only a placebo effect.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
9. Really? Are you Bill Frist doing tele-medicine?
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 02:39 PM
Oct 2013

Assuming it's merely a placebo effect it's a hell of a lot cheaper and has way fewer side-effects.

I think we've made each other aware of our respective points of view. Perhaps we should just leave it at that.


HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
11. The only one assuming anything is you.
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 12:03 AM
Oct 2013

You have clearly avoided challenging your preconceptions.

You have not tried to give yourself the knowledge that would allow you to make the claims you make. Heck, you have clearly not read any of the links I've offered.

It's time for you to challenge yourself.

I've done it. I will always do it.

Can you?

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
12. Pardon?
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 07:41 AM
Oct 2013

I've read most of them. And I've challenged notions as I indicated above. I've seen eastern work where western didn't. And I've seen the opposite.

But no. I should ignore that info and believe that I merely believed that all happened.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
13. And now you're pushing the fake notions of Eastern and Western.
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 01:36 PM
Oct 2013

No, you haven't read them. That is very clear.

You do not want to challenge your belief. You've made that clear. Unfortunately, your belief is not based on the full view of the scientific evidence and plausibility. You won't care. But that's the truth.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
14. You're not done yelling at me?
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 05:50 PM
Oct 2013

Or making assumptions about my experience? Or what I've read?

Are you trying to do anything other than alienate me?

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
15. Not one thing you've written indicates any knowledge of what I've posted.
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 05:58 PM
Oct 2013

You've simply continued to assert your anecdotes.

If being honest alienates someone who is not attempting to engage in honest discussion, so be it.

You are the one who has made ugly personal attacks, thus far. Just in case you'd forgotten.

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
10. As with many of these situations
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 08:00 PM
Oct 2013

You have a bad case of confirmation bias. Personally I don't care if you waste your money on remedies that don't really do anything; as long as you're not recommending them to other gullible people, it only affects you.

DetlefK

(16,479 posts)
18. For example, one of the things Mao extincted from TCM was lucky charms.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:00 AM
Oct 2013

I saw a short documentary about that a few years ago.

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