Soliciting feedback.

[AtheistCrusader]

Greetings. Apologies if this is considered an intrusion, and I will delete the thread if it is considered disruptive, with apologies in advance.

In the religion forum, a thread has been percolating about a prominent atheist (Richard Dawkins) and something he said yesterday. In the process of discussing it, I shared a hypothetical opinion that I need to know if it crosses any lines, because I was challenged directly on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218148090#post31

Just to keep it in context, I am not supporting or excusing Dawkins or his exhortation to abort in that situation, I merely opined that knowing what I know about me, if I were hypothetically in that position, I would choose not to be a parent. I am not trying to salt your assessment of what I said, and whether it is valid for a male to have an opinion on that issue, in any way beyond that, just that I spoke to what I believe I would do, and nothing else.

Is this genuinely unacceptable for a male to do? Please be as blunt as you like, I will not take it personally. I need to know if I am actually off-base here. I am not attempting to create a flame-fest here, or score some points, just looking for feedback.

[shraby]

1. Life is hard enough if a person has everything they need to work with.

Myself I would abort a child if I knew it had Downs. I would never subject a child to the kind of life Downs gives them.
A child deserves better. Life is more than breathing.

[YarnAddict]

5. Lots of DS people have

very happy lives. And lots of people without it, don't.

Life can be hard for a lot of reasons. Maybe you think poor people shouldn't have kids either?

Also--DS people can accomplish a lot more than just breathing.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. Before this diverges, I'd like to point out

I don't disagree that that should be a consideration. However, the core contention that caused me to bring this here, to this audience wasn't about the choice to abort or not for that reason. It is whether I as a male can acceptably venture a hypothetical opinion on what I believe I would do, if I were a prospective mother facing that choice.

That's the only reason I brought it here. That and the contention that I would not find a welcoming audience for the fact that I offered such a hypothetical. Not the merits of the opinion itself, but that I would venture it, specifically as a male.

[YarnAddict]

7. Ah, I see. My opinion about your question:

No matter what you think you would do, you don't know what you would actually do if you were in that situation. And you never will be.

A woman carrying a fetus with DS has probably felt the kicking, and has probably connected with that fetus in a way no one else, man or woman, can. No matter what you think--that's something you won't ever experience, and so you can't account for it.

In my own situation, I was diagnosed with Hodgkins Disease in the 7th month of my second pregnancy. I was told that had I been diagnosed a few months earlier, the recommendation would have been that I abort. I can't say what I would have done, because I was never faced with that choice. But I do know, that much as I wanted a 3rd child, I chose not to have one, because a recurrence of my cancer might have caused me to face that choice, and I didn't want to ever have to make that choice. This may sound strange, but aborting a 3rd child because of my illness would have affected my relationship with my 2nd child. I don't think I would have been able to look at him without wondering what #3 would have looked like, been like, accomplished . . .

My friends (some of whom were militantly pro-life) were very willing to tell me what they would have done, but they had never been in that position, so, no, they didn't know.

Anyway, that was nearly 30 years ago, and I have never been sorry, because I know how that choice would have haunted me.

I hope that in my round-about way, I have answered your question.

Again, just my opinion.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Thank you.

I appreciate the time that you took and in choosing to share that information.

I certainly agree, that the proposition is hazardous as a hypothetical, by its nature. The universe is indeterminate (in my opinion) and I cannot know for certain. But that is also an inherent risk of a hypothetical.

Part of the reason that in this particular case I felt that I could reasonably offer a likely outcome, is that in the UK, when faced with this decision, women choose to abort at a rate approaching 90%. That dovetails well with my personal feelings on issues like end of life care, etc. But you are absolutely correct, if it were possible to change my gender, I could not predict with any certainty that the outcome would be the same as my assumption now.


But this changes my question slightly. Given that, does it reflect on how serious my opinion might be taken, or does it mean the opinion was off-limits to voice?

My personal expectation is that it would just discount the weight of the opinion by adding uncertainty, and that venturing it wouldn't be inherently offensive.

[YarnAddict]

10. I think your personal expection

is right on the money! You have a right to hold an opinion, and to express that opinion.

It can be fun to speculate on hypothetical situations ("If I won the lottery, I would . . .,) and they can be interesting mental exercises, but we can never know.

It used to drive. Me. Crazy. when my mother would say, "If I were you, I would . . ." The presumption always seemed to be that she knew more about how I should live my life than I did. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

11. I try so hard not to do that with my son.

I often find myself trying to guess what he'll swear up and down he won't repeat as a mistake as a parent, what I am doing wrong now.

Thank you for your feedback, I really appreciate it. And don't worry, I won't go do burnouts and victory lap around the other forum over it. It's serious material.

[shraby]

15. I come from poor people.

I married and had 4 children we raised them on 90 dollars per week. Don't suggest I don't think poor people shouldn't have children!
Maybe Downs children are happy, but I still wouldn't subject a child to the life a Downs child would have. I stand by my words...any more than I would subject a child with spina bifeda to the kind of life they would have. That's my choice not to say others wouldn't choose differently.

[YarnAddict]

16. I have a friend whose son

has spina bifida. he is in a wheelchair, but lives on his own, works in IT, has a wonderful relationship with his family, and every pic I see of him, he has a huge smile on his face. What a tragic life he must have.

Your choice to abort or not to abort, but I don't think you can make judgments about how wretched you think someone else's life would be, any more than someone else should judge that you shouldn't have subjected your children to a childhood of deprivation.

[shraby]

17. That was good wages in 1960.

But there were some things we did without.

[YarnAddict]

18. I think you may have missed my point

I'm not making judgments about whether poor people should have children, nor am I making judgments about the quality of life of people with physical and/or intellectual challenges.

I'm simply saying that you can't judge someone's quality of life if you have never walked in their shoes.

[shraby]

19. And what I was saying, is I would abort a child with a serious disability.

As long as that was an option I had when I was in the child bearing years, I would have taken it because I think a child should have all the advantages it's possible to give them at birth. After birth, things can and do go wrong, but at least I think they should have the best start I could give the child.

[Warpy]

2. You could voice an opinion

but your choice had already been made when you failed to wear a condom to protect you from the consequences of sex. At the point of voicing an opinion about continuing a Down's pregnancy, the final choice is simply not yours to make.

What Dawkins actually said was that the ethics of such a situation were especially thorny and he was glad he didn't have to make the choice, himself.

[F4lconF16]

3. "At the point of voicing an opinion about continuing a Down's pregnancy

the final choice is simply not yours to make."

As a man, I want to ask a question. Should we not have an opinion about what we would do we were in that situation? I could never be, and I would never presume to tell a woman in that situation what she should do or what I would do, but isn't thinking about it a good thing to do? I know I've had to think about this exact question before during a discussion with some friends, and we all offered our opinions and reasoning. I think forming an opinion on things like this forces you to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and helps you to empathize with the person in the situation.

That said, I'm sure that many men don't think when they voice an opinion about things such as this, and of course then either hurt or offend others. I can understand why a woman wouldn't wish to have a discussion on the topic, and I wouldn't mind at all if she didn't want to hear or care about a man's opinion on the subject. So I just want to clarify, do you think that we shouldn't form an opinion on the subject, or that we simply shouldn't voice our opinion without being asked? The first I would have to disagree with. I hope this post doesn't come off as an attack or trolling. It's just something I'm wondering about.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. That is actually the gist of the original disagreement. That as a male, it is invalid for me to

venture a hypothetical on what I would do in that position. To paraphrase the other poster's objection.

Actual quote:

"Sorry, but you will never be a pregnant female and you can not even begin to imagine what that is like.
When men speak of what they would do if they found themselves pregnant, it is the ultimate in male arrogance.
You have no idea what you would do, nor will you ever know."

The objection seems to indicate I have crossed some line that is not acceptable, and I am looking for a general consensus if that is true or not.

Generally I am of the opinion that no subject exists that is not possible to be discussed or exercised hypothetically, but that's why I'm here for feedback. Specifically here, because I was told that opinion would not fly in this specific audience, which is another claim I personally do not believe is true.

[YarnAddict]

8. You can't know what you would do

Actually, no one who has never been faced with that dilemna can know what they would do.

I have a cousin whose 2nd child was born with DS. They hadn't done the amnio, or anything, because they knew they wouldn't abort. That's fine. That was her choice. Her son is a loved and valued member of their family. They love him just as he is.

She now counsels women who have learned that their fetus or baby has Down Syndrome. She can speak to the issues they face in a way other people can't.

[F4lconF16]

12. I would agree that we can't know, and

(though of course I can't know this either) that women who have not been in or are not in that dilemma can't know what they would do either, though they would probably have a better idea than I.

I'm not sure you read my question as I meant it. I accept that I can't know. Realizing that, should I therefore not have an opinion? Should I think about it, form an opinion, recognize its inherent invalidity, and therefore not say anything? Or, as the OP asks, does voicing that opinion cross a line?

I tend to think that since my opinion is inherently invalid, I would not voice it unless asked to. Of course, I don't think there is something wrong with voicing it either, but it really depends on the time and place. I wouldn't venture into a forum for women discussing the problem and looking for counsel and shout my opinion, but I wouldn't see a problem talking about it among a group of friends. The OP falls somewhere in between, I think. Intent and awareness of what you're doing would be the key.

Of course, none of this matters since as a male who will never experience the issue being discussed, it wasn't my opinion that the OP was asking for

[YarnAddict]

13. You have a right to an opinion,

and you have a right to voice that opinion. But, understand that it will be rejected out of hand, and probably not always in a real nice way! Maybe your opinion would be better stated as, "If my partner and I found that she was carrying a DS fetus, I would (hope that she would . . .,) (encourage her to . . .,) (understand that . . .)" I think that an opinion stated that way would absolutely have validity, and would be something that you could address with a bit more authority as a man.

I guess it's kind of like me, as a woman, saying, "If I were diagnosed with prostate cancer, I would cut those puppies off myself to starve the cancer of testosterone!" I have no idea what I would do, nor do I have any real idea of what the family jewels mean to you as a man!!!

[kdmorris]

14. I try to think about what I would do in all kinds of situations

Mostly to "check my ethics"... what would I do if I were an 18 year old male soldier in Afghanistan, for example.

I will never be 18 again, there's no way in hell I will ever be a soldier and I am not a man. But thinking through situations and what I might do is helpful for me to try to flesh out my ethics, to help me keep my empathy and think about the motivations of others.

It is NOT offensive for a man to try to think of what they would do in that situation. It IS offensive if you were to say that you would never let any woman of yours have a baby with DS. Then, you're just being a controlling ass, instead of the way you put it which is 'how would you feel if you were in that situation?", which is an attempt to be empathic.

The alternative is that we would all have no empathy, which basically means we are all sociopaths. As a previous poster said, you never know exactly how you would feel until you are in that situation, but to me, trying to think it through actually helps me to try to understand others, their unique situations and to feel, just a little bit, of what they MAY be feeling. There are some situations so foreign to me that I cannot understand motivations at all (serial killers come to mind), but just about every thing else - trying to think how I would feel in that situation has led to me a little bit more understanding.

Besides which, while you will never be pregnant, you will (or maybe are) a parent. It's not that much of a stretch to try to understand how a woman feels about parenting. I personally think that men feel a lot more than they are "allowed" to. If a woman has a miscarriage, for example, no one ever asks how the man is feeling, and excepts him to just be stoic and strong, even though it was his baby, too. Of course, I am not a man, so all I can do is imagine that men hurt just a much as women when when lose a baby... but that's an attempt at empathy.

*this is my opinion only... others may have different opinions.

[xecaps]

20. sure

interesting