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In reply to the discussion: On a Rainy Day [View all]

AloeVera

(4,420 posts)
9. It has been a long while that I have seen so many of Israel's talking points summarized so well and succinctly.
Sun May 10, 2026, 05:15 PM
May 10

I am reluctant to respond, as weariness and disillusionment have long set in, but I'll give it a shot.

Taking the heat off AIPAC by appealing to worse problems seems like whataboutism or two wrongs make a right- thinking. I don't think it's a winning argument but ymmv.

Military aid to Israel is largely paid for by the U.S. taxpayer in one form or other. It is grant money, and in fact only Israel is allowed to use those grants to purchase from Israeli firms as welll as U.S. firms. Creating defense jobs doesn't hold much water with those opposed to the MIC or to ethnic cleansing and genocide carried out with the fruits of the labour of U.S. employees and the subsidy of U.S. taxpayers. People are realizing now that for Israel, war is the first option, not the last and it doesn't sit well with most of them. Aside from morality, war is expensive and touting defense jobs is likely not the winning argument it once was.

I would sincerely hope that Jewish Democrats choose sticking with their party and all it represents over allegiance to AIPAC or any other pro-Israel organization. There has been a sea-change in American Jews' attitudes towards Israel, not surprising as Israel demonstrates over and over again that it is not in alignment with democratic values, principles and seems to have jettisoned humanitarian and moral principles entirely. I have faith in Jewish Americans to make the right choice.

Of course Palestine was not a country but no one ever raises the fact that neither were Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq etc because we know the history of colonialism. We also know why, unlike the others, Palestine is not a country today.

It is never right to drive people out of their lands and homes. That's my response to your point about Jews being driven out of middle east countries AFTER the founding of Israel.

Which empire or ancient kingdom does not have a bloody history, including the ancient Kingdom of Israel? Amalek? And seriously, who is the aggressor today, not hundreds or thousands of years ago? In fact which country's leader boasted about inflicting another Amalek, this time on Palestinians, a promise he in fact made good to the approval of the majority of its citizens?

Paradise on the Mediterranean? Anyone who knows the history of what Israel did to Gaza for decades, instead of falling for Israel's talking points, is not going to believe that.

But out of all these talking points the one that really bothered me for 2 years was the one about people starving in Gaza because their leaders were apparently eating all their food. Or taking their aid money. Anyone who followed even at a cursory level Israel's planned and deliberate blocking of aid and literally starving children as a result, knows that that talking point is hogwash.

Sure, nuanced conversations would be great! But ones based on disproven or suspect talking points that mainly serve to demonize and "other" is not going to get us there.

Murder and assaults on people based on who they are, whether they are Jews or Palestinians or Black Americans, or ICE protesters is abhorrent. Violent, anti-semitic crimes against Jews are abominable and the uptick in violent crime - assaults and murder - against them since 2023 should be talked about. It is not at all "offset" by the decrease of 30-40% in non-violent crimes such as harassment and vandalism since 2024 so I understand why it is not mentioned. Yet it could be indicative of a coming downward trend in physical violence too, for which we can all hope.


Recommendations

1 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

On a Rainy Day [View all] H2O Man May 9 OP
Individually Saoirse9 May 10 #1
A number of things. H2O Man May 10 #6
When was Dick Cheney "ushered on stage" to endorse? What event was that? betsuni May 10 #2
Okay. H2O Man May 10 #7
you obviously don't see the virtue in enabling the election of a white supremacist, criminal madman bigtree May 12 #24
My brains shut down when I try to understand it. betsuni May 13 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author betsuni May 13 #43
"It is essential that we have a conversation on this complicated issue" Martin Eden May 10 #3
Very good! H2O Man May 10 #8
One Word Martin Eden May 10 #4
it's a hard conversation to have. mopinko May 10 #5
It has been a long while that I have seen so many of Israel's talking points summarized so well and succinctly. AloeVera May 10 #9
It definitely is hard. H2O Man May 11 #11
i absolutely wish that jews believed in hell, mopinko May 11 #13
Thank you! H2O Man May 11 #15
Good OP malaise May 10 #10
Thank you! H2O Man May 11 #12
interesting bigtree May 11 #14
Interesting. H2O Man May 11 #16
I think you can find numerous statements and actions by Sen. Schumer, if you look, that condem every objectional aspect bigtree May 11 #17
Very good. H2O Man May 11 #18
this is false bigtree May 12 #21
Gracious! H2O Man May 12 #22
that has nothing at all to do with what you claimed is my belief bigtree May 12 #23
Sure it does. H2O Man May 12 #25
well, you go on and tell me what I believe bigtree May 12 #27
Golly. H2O Man May 12 #28
responding to your continued effort to tell me what I believe bigtree May 12 #29
You are funny! H2O Man May 12 #30
you might not find it as funny if I did the same dishonest and demeaning thing bigtree May 12 #31
I think that H2O Man May 12 #32
I think it's sad that you can't find something that actually affects Americans to prioritize in the next election bigtree May 12 #33
Comic genius! H2O Man May 12 #34
like I said bigtree May 12 #35
Ha! H2O Man May 12 #36
lol, sweating 'Robert' bigtree May 13 #37
I have never H2O Man May 13 #38
there you go again, claiming I said things I haven't said or implied bigtree May 13 #39
You are confused. H2O Man May 13 #40
the hubris in representing to me that you know ANYTHING substantive about what I believe bigtree May 13 #44
Catch-22, denialism and a few other things... AloeVera May 11 #19
Americans were divided on that conflict bigtree May 12 #20
The attempts at restraint failed because there was little behind them to make them serious. AloeVera May 13 #41
I think you're assuming levers of influence that didn't exist for Biden bigtree May 13 #45
I am reminded H2O Man May 12 #26
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