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Denzil_DC

(8,009 posts)
25. Listen. Listen good, because I'm about done wasting my time on you.
Sun Sep 3, 2017, 02:55 PM
Sep 2017
What I was saying there that forcing an election at the moment that motion forced it was the worst possible choice for Scotland, in addition to the grievous and still-unhealed wounds it inflicted on people in the rest of the UK.


Can you not see how a lot of people have just as much reason to resent the SNP for putting Margaret Thatcher into power as you feel about Corbyn not giving SNP government at Holyrood the credit it deserves?


Try an experiment. Actually come over to the UK, since you seem so concerned about the situation here.

Talk to people about the late 1970s. Talk to the impoverished, the "voters with humane, progressive values and those not billionaires" you claim to be so concerned about. Ask them about the political situation of the time.

I'm willing to bet good money I can't afford that if they remember it at all, they will recall the utter disaster the Callaghan government made of its time in office.

They'll remember the unburied bodies.

They'll remember the vast piles of garbage festering high in the streets.

They'll remember the three-day week.

They'll remember the regular power cuts.

They'll remember the Winter of Discontent.

They'll remember "Crisis, what crisis?"

They'll place the blame firmly at the feet of those who were actually responsible - the Labour government and the overreaching, irresponsible unions of the time.

A vanishingly small percentage will blame the SNP for all this because they're not fucking insane.

What part of "It would quite possibly have been an even worse result if the election had been postponed" are you unable to grasp?

How the hell do you think Labour would have been able to overturn the polls that showed a landslide majority for the Tories in the few months between March and autumn 1979?

Evidence for this?

People voted for the Tories in large numbers.

They voted for them again and again.

Many who voted for them were from what was termed "the working class".

Many voted against their best interests in the long term because they were bribed with short-term gains or the myth that one day they'd benefit.

Many from across the board, and from those afflicted parts of the population, to this day will tell you gravely that "Thatcher did what had to be done."

Very few will express any affection for Callaghan.

Probably even fewer, even within Labour, will express affection for Foot.

And this comes from someone who actually consistently voted Labour at general elections of the time and after it.

Barely any will express sympathy for the unions.

Labour and the unions have never regained the ground lost during that period.

Labour has spent all its time since then running away from the spectre of it all, and with good reason.

Callaghan refused to do a deal with the Ulster Unionists over a pipeline that would have defeated the motion.

Callaghan decided not to call on MP Sir Alfred Broughton to risk his very fragile health to attend and vote in an ambulance.

The Labour Chief Whip was grudgingly but generously offered a deal by Tory Chief Whip Bernard Weatherill that he would abstain himself since Broughton couldn't vote - a move that would have ended Weatherill's career. He turned it down.

The Liberals - bitter ex-partners in government with Labour - had their own role to play, and would have put forward their own no confidence motion if the Tories hadn't.

The Irish nationalists refused to back Labour, but were generously willing to campaign for Callaghan's re-election if the vote was lost.

And you're going to sit there and blame the SNP?

Away and boil yer heid.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I always felt sorry for Dugdale T_i_B Aug 2017 #1
She DID stand up to Corbyn...in fact, she spent much of her tenure fighting to remove him Ken Burch Aug 2017 #2
Corbyn is a London politician... T_i_B Aug 2017 #3
Corbyn HAPPENS to be from London. He hasn't taken consciously anti-Scottish positions. Ken Burch Aug 2017 #4
Location matters. T_i_B Aug 2017 #5
OK...but since any politician from anywhere is going to have some local loyalties, Ken Burch Aug 2017 #6
Actually, it tends to be more of an asset for most politicians T_i_B Aug 2017 #7
Agreed. Ken Burch Aug 2017 #8
I would ask Denzil about polls and popularity in Scotland... T_i_B Aug 2017 #9
The "poll" Ken's referring to, Denzil_DC Aug 2017 #10
I agree with you on some points: Ken Burch Aug 2017 #11
Point by point: Denzil_DC Aug 2017 #12
I was wrong on the Smith Commission date. Ken Burch Aug 2017 #13
Corbyn was Labour leader when the Scotland Act 2016 was debated and voted through Parliament. Denzil_DC Aug 2017 #14
As always, I learn from your posts. Ken Burch Aug 2017 #15
You obviously shouldn't just take what I say on trust. Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #16
Thanks for the info about the likely sucessors to Dugdale. T_i_B Sep 2017 #17
Well, yes to all that, T_i_B. Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #18
There are contradictions, but it's not as simple as saying Corbyn is contradictory Ken Burch Sep 2017 #21
I can see a case for voting SNP in Holyrood elections. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #20
Dude, I'm not going to respond to your post above this one Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #22
I know Callaghan's government itself was a trainwreck Ken Burch Sep 2017 #24
Listen. Listen good, because I'm about done wasting my time on you. Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #25
It was Heath that did the three-day week. And I'm not defending Callaghan. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #26
Mea culpa. Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #27
My point about the no-confidence motion was not about claiming Callaghan was brilliant. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #29
A backgrounder from the Glasgow Herald's Tom Gordon Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #19
Another backgrounder from the Herald, this time from Paul Hutcheon Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #23
Well now ... Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #28
YouGov: "Why the Labour centrists stand a better chance in Scotland" Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #30
As you pointed out, most of those who would be "Corbynyista" ended up in the SNP. Ken Burch Sep 2017 #31
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you don't actually read what I write, Denzil_DC Sep 2017 #32
Finally, the leadership election results, and the winner is ... Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #33
"Reality" TV shows? T_i_B Nov 2017 #34
What is it about politicians swanning off from their jobs to appear on reality shows? LeftishBrit Nov 2017 #35
On the brighter side, I reckon it finished off the serious period of Galloway's career! Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #36
Davidson on a Bake Off special wouldn't have taken much time muriel_volestrangler Nov 2017 #37
Yeah. If she's a crap baker, she could be out of there in no time! Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #38
Does make you wonder about the list system T_i_B Nov 2017 #40
It does. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #41
Ugh. This is NOT a promising start from Leonard. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #39
It's not getting any better Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #42
What on earth is happening with Scottish Labour at present? T_i_B Oct 2018 #43
AFAIK, it's actually a separate strain of infighting, and endemic to Scottish labour. Denzil_DC Oct 2018 #44
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