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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
23. OK, somehow I hadn't see this earlier. I'll respond now.
Sun Nov 12, 2017, 10:13 PM
Nov 2017

From what I've read, Labour has the dilemma, in a way neither the Tories nor the LibDems do, of a deep split among its supporters on Brexit). Corbyn was a Remainer, and campaigned for Remain extensively in the referendum-it wasn't his fault that Leave won, it was simply a horrible campaign by the national Remain campaign)

Most of Labour is Remain, but a large chunk of working-class Labour supporters in the North and Northeast-not everyone in those regions, but a large enough chunk to matter-are solidly Leave, largely because they see the EU as the cause of the unemployment and poverty there.

Corbyn and his advisors probably fear that, were they to go all out "stop Brexit", they would lose all of those Northern and Northeastern votes-as Ed Miliband lost them in 2015-and not gain any significant number of votes anywhere else-a result that can only benefit the Tories.

If there were some way for him to fight on a position of "Remain and Reform", or "Remain and Remake", that would be the best choice. At this stage, fighting to stay in essentially seems to require agreeing to accept the EU staying exactly as it is, exactly as hopelessly Thatcherite and austerian as it currently is, for the forseeable future.

I think it's possible that, with the way the process is playing out, Brexit might simply collapse under its own dead weight. I think that, at that point, Corbyn, if Labour has made it into power, could then be in a position to propose a Remain and Remake position.

But for that to happen, the Tories must be defeated. If they win a majority the next election, even if Brexit is prevented, the NHS will be abolished. Once that happens, everything is over. There won't be at reason to even try electing a non-Tory government if the NHS is gone-what could even be possible once that has happened?

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Until the government collapses T_i_B Nov 2017 #1
As much as I want the Tories out, I also want the DUP to face electoral punishment over this Ken Burch Nov 2017 #2
I don't think the DUP would be punished by voters for this LeftishBrit Nov 2017 #3
Well, times change, but this was from 2010: Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #4
A snap election can't come soon enough. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #5
I wouldn't credit the DUP with that much T_i_B Nov 2017 #6
I'd like to see quite a bit more clear water between the Tories and Labour Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #7
I'm for even more clear water than there is, although there's a lot more than previously. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #8
The latest poll I've seen showed Labour 3 points ahead. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #11
In theory, Labour should be much further ahead in the polls T_i_B Nov 2017 #12
I think at times recently Labour have been providing a more effective opposition. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #13
OK, somehow I hadn't see this earlier. I'll respond now. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #23
I've addressed pretty much all this at quite some length below. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #28
I thought I owed it to you to respond to this post when I saw it. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #29
You would agree that any continued anti-Corbyn efforts, including expulsions of his supporters, Ken Burch Nov 2017 #20
No. T_i_B Nov 2017 #37
To clarify, I wasn't condemning every single expulsion. Misogynists should be expelled. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #40
Wrong T_i_B Nov 2017 #41
OK...you can't seriously argue that there are people who are antiracist AND antisemitic. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #42
You really don't have experience of people in real life do you? T_i_B Nov 2017 #43
I have plenty of experence in real life. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #44
Given that you keep posting the same old theoretical bollocks T_i_B Nov 2017 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author Ken Burch Nov 2017 #49
I haven't mentioned the EU once on this thread T_i_B Nov 2017 #50
I have read the other posts...I'm sorry I misdirected that response to you. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #51
Christ, have you never ever misread something? Ken Burch Nov 2017 #53
I've met some. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #46
Oh...to clarify...by "clear blue water", I thought you meant policy differences. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #14
Do you not actually read anything anybody posts? T_i_B Nov 2017 #15
I read what he posted. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #21
In that particular post, I was plainly referring to clear water in terms of polling. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #16
You seem to think I'm a closet Leaver Ken Burch Nov 2017 #17
Bleedin' Ada. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #18
I'm only speaking for myself, and am not trying to convince you personally, Denzil. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #19
Now you REALLY are trying my patience, as if you hadn't already. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #22
OK, a reset is a good idea. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #24
It would also help if you'd stop making major edits to your posts after you've written them. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #25
Fair enough. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #26
Well, it mattered a bit more this time because you added questions to the end. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #27
When I started this thread, I never meant to get into Brexit. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #30
I didn't say that I thought a reset was a great idea. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #31
I don't disagree with a single thing you've said there. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #32
Well, to return to my entry to this discussion, Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #33
OK. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #34
The problem is this: Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #38
Denzil, I'm not trying to persuade YOU to vote Labour. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #39
Why do you think Labour's support would plummet if it supported Remain? LeftishBrit Nov 2017 #35
I DON'T condemn Labour's support for Remain in the referendum. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #36
"I do think it's time that people stop blaming Corbyn for the Leave victory" Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #47
Look, this all started because I honestly misunderstood what Denzil meant by "clear blue water". Ken Burch Nov 2017 #48
Jeebus. This "small group of you that post in the UK group" Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #54
Wasn't meaning to lecture...I respect your views on the EU and truly wasn't challenging them. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #55
OK...I misread it. In terms of UK politics, I'm used to seeing the term "clear blue water" Ken Burch Nov 2017 #52
She'll call an election The King of Prussia Nov 2017 #9
I thought she would have done it around october syringis Nov 2017 #10
Ok. I live in England and from NI so I have opinions on both these things....... Soph0571 Nov 2017 #56
Thank you for that. there's a fair amount of things in there I didn't know. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #57
Unfortunately the community is divided and always will be Soph0571 Nov 2017 #58
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